ARRMA Kraton EXB - Extreme Bash Roller Speed Truck

[Kukynas]

X-team 4082 or 4092... I’ve been running them in my 1/8 scale and wouldn’t choose anything else, in typical basher there is no point of spending crazy money for expensive motors especially if they aren’t any better than these two considering we are talking about 3.5 to 4.2 kw on 5-6kg rig, I remember running 4082 on 5S in my SSTe and it was crazy, for 60 dola landed not bad at all...

[Nick]

I've spent a lot on a motor before, I think my Neu was over £200 and I couldn't really justify the price. It actually blew up on me, magnets shattered.

 

I'd like to try a Lehner but honestly I don't think I'll see night and day difference to some of the budget motors out there, it's just kinda cool to know you've got the best and fair enough if you have the cash to splash... which I don't, so I won't be getting one anyway.

 

And Castle aren't all that, they were made in a Chinese factory, when they moved to a different factory due to a "falling out" I purchased all their old stock (and branded them Sirius, if you remember). They lost their rag over it, I'll tell you though, they were dirt cheap from factory, Castle have a huge markup.

 

Brushless motors are over a decade old, it's not new tech, they've done it all and there isn't really much to shout about anymore between brands IMO.

[m4inbrain]

1 hour ago, babylon said:

I know were your going with that.

 

 

Do you though? 

 

The corally motor you suggested is so small that not even corally is thinking of putting them into their bashers. It's a 2400W motor. The 4985 1650kv produces 5700W. What's your point exactly though? I should spend big on (allegedly and presumably) one of the toughest bashers money can buy currently - race kit levels of money - and then put a £30 motor in it? What's the point of getting a bulletproof truck if your motor is nowhere near capable (and lets be clear, it's nowhere near) enough of getting you into trouble? 

 

The motor you suggested there is weaker than any current mainstream systems in bashers. The size alone should tell you that - if you don't believe me, look at the size of can corally puts into the Dementor/Kronos. I also don't care what people ran "once upon a time" - once upon a time i had to change crystals before i turned on my boat. And before that, nobody was even thinking of putting a brushless motor in an RC car because they were so horribly inefficient that there was no point, especially with the battery packs that were available back then. 

 

46 minutes ago, Kukynas said:

X-team 4082 or 4092... I’ve been running them in my 1/8 scale and wouldn’t choose anything else, in typical basher there is no point of spending crazy money for expensive motors especially if they aren’t any better than these two considering we are talking about 3.5 to 4.2 kw on 5-6kg rig, I remember running 4082 on 5S in my SSTe and it was crazy, for 60 dola landed not bad at all...

 

Interesting colour these motors have. 

 

They're weaker than both 1717 and 4985. In fact, almost 30% weaker. You can argue that you don't want or need a motor like that - that's okay. I want a motor like that - it's the entire point of the exercise. The EXB can take more power than the stock Kraton, so why would i put in a system that's barely more powerful than the 4274 that the stock Kraton comes with?

 

I have the money to spend. If i get a top notch basher roller, i'll get a top notch motor with it - if i indeed get the 1717, depending on if i can get my hands on it (plus the MMX8s) before the roller comes out in the UK. Much like with my Trail King which has a top notch hand wound brushed motor in it. 

 

edit: @above, there was a time where i wouldn't touch castle with a 10 foot pole, and planned to rip it out of my XXL2e the day it arrived. That doesn't mean that i'm holding a grudge towards a company for a decade (unless its Traxxas, fair enough). And while i agree that brushless motors in itself aren't new tech, to my knowledge there aren't many systems that switch between sensored and sensorless depending on situation (i actually didn't know any until a few hours ago). It's not like brushless motors (and especially ESC) today have much in common with what we had 10 years ago apart from the concept.

Edited July 4, 2020 by m4inbrain

[Jumper]

tbh a motor is some copper wire, some magnets glued to a steel shaft and 2 bearings. its not exactly hard to make it correctly. I guess the magnets strength, copper purity and bearings will make some difference. I think the esc being reliable and consistent is much more important than the motor.  

[Kukynas]

15 minutes ago, m4inbrain said:

Interesting colour these motors have. 

 

They're weaker than both 1717 and 4985. In fact, almost 30% weaker. You can argue that you don't want or need a motor like that - that's okay. I want a motor like that - it's the entire point of the exercise. The EXB can take more power than the stock Kraton, so why would i put in a system that's barely more powerful than the 4274 that the stock Kraton comes with?

 

30%? where did you get those figures? I don't know how about the new 1717 but old 1717 was rated with 120A max at 25.2 that's 3 kw from such large can compared to those 4082 or 4092 ? 

[RCbutcher]

Wait what. Nick the Sirius motors was you? 

 

Thats crazy cool if so.

[m4inbrain]

1 hour ago, Kukynas said:

 

30%? where did you get those figures? I don't know how about the new 1717 but old 1717 was rated with 120A max at 25.2 that's 3 kw from such large can compared to those 4082 or 4092 ? 

 

The 4985 is rated with a max wattage of 5700W. 4200/5700=0.73. 

 

The X-Team 4092 has 73% of the power of the 4985. Or 27% less (i guessed the first time around, but 27% is close enough to 30%). The old 1717 pulled more than 3kw, as can be seen by datalogs of the XO-1 (it pulled 200A under load, or 4.5kw). The new one is 8S capable, i'd assume it has a higher amp limit - but i readily admit that in that case i can't say for sure since castle tends to be stingy with "giving out specs". can't find anything for it. The only thing i can say is that it's supposedly designed to run up to 20lbs 1/6th trucks. 

 

The 4985 is a 25.2v 160A motor. Now, i understand that 25.2*160A isn't 5700, but 4032. So i'm clearly missing a parameter somewhere. 

 

But, first of all, there's no equivalent 4092 motor to the 4985 in terms of kv. The 4985 is 1650kv - the closest to that is the 4092 1730kv, which you can't run on 6s. The first 4092 rated at a "safe" 25 or above volts is a 1390kv, and that one has a max draw of 125A. That's 3150W, not 4200. Again, there's a parameter missing. And it's going downhill from there, the first motor rated at a max voltage of 26v is the 1300kv one, rated at 110A. That's 2860W. 

 

Though, again: that'd mean that the 4985 is still 22% more powerful, while likely being more efficient too (though that's speculation on my part). So it kinda doesn't matter how we twist it, i can't tell you absolutely exact numbers - but the numbers we can come up with in regards to the motors where the numbers are given (4092 vs 4985) are pretty unarguable. There's probably some overhead for burst taken into account, which would lead to 4200W, 5700W and indeed the 4500W people logged in their XO-1s. 

 

What was quite surprising to me is that the X-Team motor isn't capable of running 1730kv on 6s, or anywhere near it. Especially considering that the Hobbystar 4092 can. 

 

As a sidenote, the Hobbystar 4092 1730kv is advertised for <26V, with a max wattage of 4200W and 160A draw. 

 

I'd take a Hobbystar motor (that was indeed my first choice but is completely unavailable here) over the 1717, but i won't buy a X-Team motor. 

 

 

[Jumper]

You cant compare rated max output power or max constant numbers like this, they are just made up like c ratings. even more so from different manufactures. bigger motor = more power. pretty much the best rule of thumb. 

[m4inbrain]

2 hours ago, Jumper said:

tbh a motor is some copper wire, some magnets glued to a steel shaft and 2 bearings. its not exactly hard to make it correctly. I guess the magnets strength, copper purity and bearings will make some difference. I think the esc being reliable and consistent is much more important than the motor.  

 

That's.. quite oversimplified. 

 

Yes, all of them have copper and magnets, and some glue and bearings. And from here you get it wrong. Yes of course it's hard to make correctly. There's a reason why you can buy a knife for £2, and you can buy a knife for £100, made from the same material. It's not just the "strength" of stuff, but the entire package. The magnets in the 1717 for example aren't $3 aliexpress magnets, but sintered neodymium magnets - and they're  kevlar wrapped too. It has NMB precision bearings made in japan, etc pp. It's a well made product.

 

Do i buy into that "proprietary great technique for winding the stator"? Nah. But i don't need to, even if it's the same stator as everyone else, it still has expensive bearings and materials. Which of course plays into efficiency. 

 

I do agree with the last sentence though - indeed if i had to choose between either ESC or motor being quality rather than a cheapie, i'd take a higher quality ESC over a higher quality motor too, without a doubt. But i'm sorted with either a Max6 or MMX8s on that front. Though, since you brought it up, an ESC is also just a few capacitors, copper and plastic, and some PCBs running generic programming. That's shouldn't be hard to get right either - but yet, we agree that a "higher quality ESC" does make a difference. 

 

Same goes for me with the motor. If people disagree, be my guest. 

 

Hell, as i said, my first choice was the Hobbystar motor, which is also pretty cheap (ish) - but it looks like decent quality, and not like a castle knock-off (well, you could argue that it looks like a hobbywing knock off, but meh) with it's CNC machined can etc. If i could find one without having to pay an arm and a leg in customs and shipping, bringing it basically to the price of a 1717, i'd take it in a heartbeat. 

 

[m4inbrain]

5 minutes ago, Jumper said:

You cant compare rated max output power or max constant numbers like this, they are just made up like c ratings. even more so from different manufactures. bigger motor = more power. pretty much the best rule of thumb. 

 

Well, i didn't bring them up, did i. I in fact said that they're not comparable like that (and pointed out how the ratings don't even make sense). 

 

What i can say is that the 4092 doesn't come anywhere near either the Hobbystar or Hobbywing in terms of power considering it's limited to 125A at 6s, whereas the other two can pull 160A. That's a pretty ironclad indication for power. And both 1717 (4885) and especially 4985 are bigger, too. Imho the 4985 is pretty humongous for a 1/8th motor. 

Edited July 4, 2020 by m4inbrain

[babylon]

Christ on a bike, Your hard work.

 

[m4inbrain]

Just now, babylon said:

Christ on a bike, Your hard work.

 

 

Out of arguments? 

 

"Sorry" for disagreeing with your choices.

[Jumper]

19 minutes ago, m4inbrain said:

 

And from here you get it wrong. Yes of course it's hard to make correctly.

 

compared to what? XD i cant put a knife in my rc car to make it move XD 

 

17 minutes ago, m4inbrain said:

 

Well, i didn't bring them up, did i. I in fact said that they're not comparable like that (and pointed out how the ratings don't even make sense). 

 

What i can say is that the 4092 doesn't come anywhere near either the Hobbystar or Hobbywing in terms of power considering it's limited to 125A at 6s, whereas the other two can pull 160A. That's a pretty ironclad indication for power.

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by Jumper

[Jumper]

2 minutes ago, m4inbrain said:

 

Out of arguments? 

 

"Sorry" for disagreeing with your choices.

probably, you seem to argue with everyone on everything all the time XD 

[m4inbrain]

7 minutes ago, Jumper said:

probably, you seem to argue with everyone on everything all the time XD 

 

Yeah, better to not argue and just ignore suggestions like a 4143 can for a 10lbs high end Kraton. You got that right. 

 

edit: as a sidenote, thanks for the video. That was actually quite interesting - but i'm not sure what that was in response to, considering he's pretty much saying what i said: higher quality stuff = more efficient motor, while also saying that one of the most important parts (and i absolutely agree with that, made that clear even before the argument started) that temps are the most important thing to look out for. 

Edited July 4, 2020 by m4inbrain

[Jumper]

this video may also be useful for the discussed subject

 

[m4inbrain]

Another interesting video, though since we're talking basically 1/6th power systems designed to run 8s (MMX8s/Max6), i don't think the draw of the motor is an issue. They're by default designed for higher loads (1/6th trucks) than we're applying to it. 

 

I like the guy, quite a few interesting videos he got.

 

edit: yoda i am.

 

edit2: that said, i'm out. If people want to run 4143 cans in a Kraton, that's okay. I want a 1717/MMX8s (and i still have the Max6/4985 coming), i don't know why pointing that out lead to an argument in the first place, as if someone has to justify why he'd like a quality, big-arse motor over certain chinese specials or a non-waterproof/resistant 1/8th buggy motor that's guaranteed to blow up/delaminate in the first five minutes of driving. 

Edited July 4, 2020 by m4inbrain

[mond]

I've seen a few Kratons with 8S in and the actual power is the least of the problem. Keeping it straight and getting what power is there onto the ground seems to be a huge problem even when slowly building up power.

[Jumper]

3 hours ago, mond said:

I've seen a few Kratons with 8S in and the actual power is the least of the problem. Keeping it straight and getting what power is there onto the ground seems to be a huge problem even when slowly building up power.

Yes my mate put the mmx8s and 4092 in a outcast and ran 8s and it's literally impossible to control. Even at 25% throttle its was doing a standing backflip  I can also drive along at 30mph ish the  do a flip without a ramp. I don't think he's ever managed to use full throttle without the diff or tyres self destructing. It's pretty funny though. 

[Paul Busby]

Considering my (fake) castle 1518 1800kv motor doesn't particularly like my rather heavy Kraton, and that is basically a 4082 can, I would second the suggestion of avoiding the 4142 or whatever it was.

 

Bad bad bad choice.

 

If you want to save a few quid, there is plenty of cheap options on the market that will give you an enjoyable experience. The surpass motors are generally ok, they do a decent job, and they're cheap.

[Jumper]

rcdude81 seems to have m2c bits on his already  

[babylon]

I'm surprised why no one seems to be asking the question as to why the Kraton appears to be so hard to drive, In a rotational mass kind of way.

I do relieve we are talking about a 1/8 Truggy are we not, A Truggy built and developed for 2020, Using the lightest and and strongest Alloy you can reasonably get hold off, As I said, People have been happily throwing about all sorts of Monster truck conversions, Truggys and Buggys for years with 80 and 150amp ESC connected to all sorts of motors and sizes, With 2000KV being the absolute sweet spot, Savages that could easily do an on the spot back flips,  But for some reason this new Kraton needs a 160amp ESC and a motor the size of a coke can.

 I get m4inbrain saying

On 04/07/2020 at 20:41, m4inbrain said:

I should spend big on (allegedly and presumably) one of the toughest bashers money can buy currently - race kit levels of money - and then put a £30 motor in it? What's the point of getting a bulletproof truck if your motor is nowhere near capable (and lets be clear, it's nowhere near) enough of getting you into trouble? 

 

But I paid near over £500 for my first CRT Pro Truggy back when, A truck as expensive, As bulletproof, But went like a scolded cat on 4s for years connected to an 80amp XERun and 2200Kv motor, And an 80amp ESC that would recognises 5s if you switched it on and off a couple times(Weird), Yet these day's, Over 10 years on, A 150amp ESC made of electronic components with an extra 10 years of development and a 2000Kv motor just doesn't cut it.

 

I never asked the question should you spend that sort of money on a motor, I asked do you need to, Still don't think you do, Electronics and ESC and Motors have moved on, The cars they are put in, Haven't.

Again, Spend your money on what you want, I have no idea why I bought another CRT RTR yesterday, I'v already got 2 used and 2 new Truggys sitting on a shelf, The only person I have to justify it to is myself, And you know what, I can't, I can't honestly sit here and say I needed it, In truth it was a wast of money, And if I stuck a 200 quid motor in my CRT, I'd feel the same.

[fnknan]

Well do you regret buying it?

 

If you don't then it ain't a waste

[babylon]

1 minute ago, fnknan said:

Well do you regret buying it?

 

If you don't then it ain't a waste

Don't know, What do you think, 150 quid, With Roto Start gun.

[fnknan]

Definitely not a waste lmfao..

 

Lowkey want a crt but I'm saving for a 5th scale