EU referendum

[mond]

Have you read the Daily Express or Daily Mail? It's pages, every day about immigration.

 

It's not too many people making rules. The EU commission, which is advised by special commissions which contain MEPs suggest laws based on fair trade. The commission suggests these to parliament who then get a vote by MEPs. If it fails to pass, it gets rewritten.  Questions which change sovereignty agreements are discussed at national level and can be vetoed which is precisely what you want. So in fact you voted against your own idea?

 

I'm still waiting for examples of how our core sovereignty has been usurped by the EU. So far no one can provide this.

[Alex97]

21 minutes ago, mond said:

Have you read the Daily Express or Daily Mail? It's pages, every day about immigration.

I was talking from a personal point of view.

[sean-vrs]

Bye Bye Boris!

the man has the moral fibre of a skip rat.

[johninderby]

Hello Prime Minister Theresa

[The Hound]

i liked her speech today, plain speaking, seems a pretty decent sort

 

but,

 

 

EDDIE IZ FOR PM ! WHOOP ! 

Edited June 30, 2016 by The Hound

[Kpowell911]

It's politics. We would be screwed if we voted in, and screwed if we leave. No one wins....

 

I voted out, and I honestly think the negative issues we are experiencing (which aren't eve that bad at the moment) are caused by the "In Brigade" continue to moan about how stuffed we are, and are continuing to scaremongering making the whole situation worse. This thread is a microcosm of proof off that. The in Brigade (Mond, Carpmat etc) are saying how bad it is, and how bad it's going to be, when truth be told they don't know what the future holds, and short term nothing has even changed....

 

I appreciate it's possibly the biggest vote I'll ever make in my life, but if everyone stopped going on about it, I genuinely think the situation wouldn't be so bad. The best thing to ever happen was England getting knocked out of Euro 2016 as it gave the media a few days to moan about something else.

 

No one knows what's going to happen, you're just adding fuel to a fire and making everything worse. Not a single person has noticed a major negative affect as of yet, I can't for certain say it won't stay that way, but no one can tell me it will be all doom and gloom.

 

im just going to get on with my life and wait for another way for the Govt to screw me, wether it's an English, Great British or European one....

 

Every thing could all go wrong. I could lose my job, house prices could plummet, I'd have to sell all my things and no one could afford to buy them, but everyone will be in the same position. I've spent too much of my life worrying about things I can't control, and you know what it's pointless. You get no where. You just gotta wait, see what happens and deal with it when it happens. Everyone banging on about how doomed we are are just making everything worse....

Edited June 30, 2016 by Guns

[Carpmart]

Guns... I can categorically assure you that descisions are being taken by business to minimise risk right now.  That means 'hunkering' down and waiting to see what happens.  This in itself is REALLY bad news.  No investment, means no new jobs, means drop in confidence and general positive sentiment.  Wages don't go up.  Less real money in everyone's pocket.  Means we don't spend, means less staff needed in shops, means companies pull the belts in further....  This is called a rescesion and it's coming!  

[mond]

3 hours ago, Guns said:

It's politics. We would be screwed if we voted in, and screwed if we leave. No one wins....

 

I voted out, and I honestly think the negative issues we are experiencing (which aren't eve that bad at the moment) are caused by the "In Brigade" continue to moan about how stuffed we are, and are continuing to scaremongering making the whole situation worse. This thread is a microcosm of proof off that. The in Brigade (Mond, Carpmat etc) are saying how bad it is, and how bad it's going to be, when truth be told they don't know what the future holds, and short term nothing has even changed....

 

I appreciate it's possibly the biggest vote I'll ever make in my life, but if everyone stopped going on about it, I genuinely think the situation wouldn't be so bad. The best thing to ever happen was England getting knocked out of Euro 2016 as it gave the media a few days to moan about something else.

 

No one knows what's going to happen, you're just adding fuel to a fire and making everything worse. Not a single person has noticed a major negative affect as of yet, I can't for certain say it won't stay that way, but no one can tell me it will be all doom and gloom.

 

im just going to get on with my life and wait for another way for the Govt to screw me, wether it's an English, Great British or European one....

 

Every thing could all go wrong. I could lose my job, house prices could plummet, I'd have to sell all my things and no one could afford to buy them, but everyone will be in the same position. I've spent too much of my life worrying about things I can't control, and you know what it's pointless. You get no where. You just gotta wait, see what happens and deal with it when it happens. Everyone banging on about how doomed we are are just making everything worse....

You don't work for a business that makes its money in Europe but also has to deal in USD. It's really not looking good right now. Taking your time to read what experts have to say on this, getting an objective outlook isn't being all doom and gloom, it's preparing for what may come. It's what more people should have done before the vote rather than blindly trust any politician. The days following the out vote and the reaction of the markets etc.  happened as predicted so I don't see why other educated potential outcomes by the same people don't hold water.  

 

Yes, people have modelled different potential outcomes of this, it's the responsible thing to do. No one knows which one of the models will happen but people have a very good idea of the result of loss of direct outside investment in an economy and the falling value of a currency. Perhaps if you have a private pension it may be a good time to speak to your policy provider as they are precisely the sorts of people who look into this sort of thing.

[Kpowell911]

I was with you till you proved my point by using the word 'may'. You don't know, I don't know, the experts don't know. So let's carry on with our lives and deal with stuff when they actually happen, instead of trying to convince ourselves the worlds going to stop spinning and we are all going to become homeless....

 

It could all go wrong, and people can say to me in 10 years time, 'your vote ruined the U.K.', but fact is, you cannot confirm wether we would have been all good staying in...

Edited June 30, 2016 by Guns

[Kpowell911]

For the record, I voted out. I was on the fence cause although I think Out is the right thing, I don't really trust the 'Leave' politicians or believe they are capable of sorting this out,

 

I voted out, Not because Farage said he would spend £350m on the NHS (anyone with a brain could've worked out that we don't even put that amount in, it's closer to £180m). I think the NHS is gone regardless. Not because it will solve immigration (i make no secret that immigration and the amount of foreign aid we give disgusts me. Letting in the Syrian refugee's, disgusted me) but I know leaving the EU will do nothing to change this.

 

i voted out because I think the EU is a sinking ship. They've got too many issues (Italian/Greek debt, France unrest, Netherlands unrest with voting out)  They're letting (or have let) too many weak countries (Romania, Bulgaria etc) in who are going to take out more than they put in, which WILL AFFECT US NEGATIVELY!

 

i honestly think the EU is going to fail. Us leaving is going to be the start of that. They're bricking it. They know we will be fine on our own and others will leave. As a result of this, they WILL make an example of us. Not because we won't survive without them, but because the EU can't survive if we do succeed. I think the biggest issue is it will be made very difficult for us to succeed. Not because we aren't capable, but because others know it could affect them, and yes that does make me feel un easy, but what can I do about it really?

 

obviously, I could be wrong. Yes, they're will be experts who will be better qualified to have an opinion than me. But truth be told. No one knows. That's my point....

[Kpowell911]

And let's be honest, we wouldn't even been close to this decision if the Remain team could actually put together a basic manifesto. Not once did I hear them talk about the benefits we get from the EU. I had to research myself that farmers get subsidised for producing less, that things like the Eden project in Cornwall is EU Money, even the Fibre Internet in Wales is EU Funded. A hell of a lot of investment from the EU goes into places where the majority of the area voted out. These guys didn't even know what they gained from been a member of the EU unless the researched (yes, every voter should have researched), but how easy did Team Remain make it? How bad does your political manifesto have to be to lose to Farage and Boris? Especially when your budget was probably 10 fold.

 

They spent they're entire campaign telling us how bad it would be if we left. They tried to scare us into a vote. They thought fear would be enough. This gave the impression there were literally no positives to been in the EU and we just spend a fortune for the craic. Instead, if they went through some benefits, of which I admit they're are many, maybe, just maybe the vote would have had a different outcome.

 

If you were pro remain, It's no good calling everyone who voted out a thick Xenophobic racist. Your displeasure should be aimed towards the frankly hilariously bad Remain Camp's campaign.....

Edited June 30, 2016 by Guns

[Si Coe]

You are right about the EU. It has too many problems it needs to solve and wants to ignore because anything that isn't a step to further the formation of a United Europe isn't worthy of their efforts apparently.

We were bound to want out sooner or later - Britain has never been interested in that 'one state' business.

 

I voted Remain all the same. Why? Because we aren't ready to leave. The current situation is not caused by remainers moaning, but by the fact we have no idea what to do next. Want to see some immediate negative effects? Try the barrage of racist incidents over the last week. They are happening because in truth we don't even have a true strong cultural identity to fall back on. We are divided, leaderless and lost - no wonder the vermin are out causing trouble.

 

Can Britain do better alone? Yes, it probably could but not as it is now. What we need most of all is a new leader (not just a PM - thats merely a job, this person needs to LEAD) who can inspire the nation, unify us and give us direction. We need to decide what it is that the UK does better than anyone else, and we need to do it more. We need to train the next generation to want to do that thing more than any other job.

 

But we won't get that. We'll just get a slightly more right wing Tory than the last one, but without Brussels to rein him/her in before they sell off the NHS.......

 

 

Must say I agree about Remain though. They ran a terrible campaign. My sister in law is a Corbynite and can't get why he is under so much fire. Whilst he wasn't responsible for Remain failing, the fact is he could have saved it. Quite a few Labour supporters voted leave or just didn't vote because they hate Cameron. Corbyn did campaign for Remain but he refused the offer to campaign alongside Cameron. If they'd done that it would have been the single most powerful message in the whole referendum - both sides united at least on this one thing.

But again - lack of leadership.......

Edited June 30, 2016 by Si Coe

[Carpmart]

9 hours ago, Guns said:

I was with you till you proved my point by using the word 'may'. You don't know, I don't know, the experts don't know. So let's carry on with our lives and deal with stuff when they actually happen, instead of trying to convince ourselves the worlds going to stop spinning and we are all going to become homeless....

 

It could all go wrong, and people can say to me in 10 years time, 'your vote ruined the U.K.', but fact is, you cannot confirm wether we would have been all good staying in...

 

Guns, I saw a picture of you in an AMG Mercedes.  As you know, cars like that need a little respect.  You need to judiciously apply throttle, aware of what will happen every time you do, as well as enter and exit bends in a certain way... Effectively you look ahead down the road and plan for what you're about to encounter.  The risk of not planning is high, particularly if you don't know the road, you could smash the car up, cause personal injury to yourself or God forbid, even someone else.  All logical stuff right?  

 

So using this analogy further, we the British people are tanking into a bend, in a 500hp monster, without knowing what we will encounter the other side....  You're supporting this action, feeling nothing is wrong ....  I'm a little more cautious!  

 

I hope to god it's not a major crash, but we're not used to using 500hp and it seems like fun and were all enjoy ourselves and our new found freedom and we've been constrained by orders from our big brother (EU) for far too many years. I hear regularly from the Brexit camp..... Don't worry, It'll all be fine....

 

Well... I am bloody worried!  

[Kpowell911]

Whilst that is a great analogy and one that I can relate to, you cannot for sure tell me that continuing life in the EU, potentially having to bail out Italy/Greece/Spain etc when they inevitably fail is any different to entering that very same blind corner, in a stupidly powered RWD AMG, but this time, the traction control button is firmly switched OFF. The driver aids are all there, but they are controlled by someone else, we have no power to use these safety precautions without getting the blessing from someone else. In this case, the EU. 

 

Peel everything away, the scare mongering political tactics, peel it all back. The EU has some monumental issues coming up. They need us to help them. As a result, theyre putting on their propaganda hats, telling us how bad its going to be for us, cauae fact is, theyve let too many weaklings into the

crew, and they need us to bail them out. 

 

I am not for a second saying I am right. I could be heading for a disaster. But fact is, no one can prove other wise.  Youre right, we dont really have a plan at the moment, but No one seems to be showing me a plan to fix all of the EU's other issues either. Personally, i like to sort stuff out myself. There fore if it does go tits up. Im accountable....

[Kpowell911]

And the racism issues Si mentioned. Yes they are appalling and simply shouldnt happen! But its not a major signification negative of the out vote is it? It happens every single day, in every single city, its just been reported and shared around social media to fit the "doomed cause we're out" narrative. Harsh but true. 

 

As I say its horrendous and horrific and shouldnt happen. But its not on the scale of a currency losing a monumental amount of its value, or a global recession, or everyone losing theyre jobs is it?

Edited July 1, 2016 by Guns

[Carpmart]

 

Guns - You're 100% correct, I can't tell you the EU is the best approach for the UK, indeed I can positively confirm its not!  However, between the two options presented to the electorate, I can categorically tell you it IS the best option...  I would actually probably call it, the 'least worst' option.  

 

I accept change and reform is attractive to many... Problem is, at the end of the day, one needs to enter a negotiation from the strongest position possible.  Sadly, Brexit has created a weakened position for the UK to negotiate from....

 

 

[dazp1976]

12 hours ago, Guns said:

For the record, I voted out. I was on the fence cause although I think Out is the right thing, I don't really trust the 'Leave' politicians or believe they are capable of sorting this out,

 

I voted out, Not because Farage said he would spend £350m on the NHS (anyone with a brain could've worked out that we don't even put that amount in, it's closer to £180m). I think the NHS is gone regardless. Not because it will solve immigration (i make no secret that immigration and the amount of foreign aid we give disgusts me. Letting in the Syrian refugee's, disgusted me) but I know leaving the EU will do nothing to change this.

 

i voted out because I think the EU is a sinking ship. They've got too many issues (Italian/Greek debt, France unrest, Netherlands unrest with voting out)  They're letting (or have let) too many weak countries (Romania, Bulgaria etc) in who are going to take out more than they put in, which WILL AFFECT US NEGATIVELY!

 

i honestly think the EU is going to fail. Us leaving is going to be the start of that. They're bricking it. They know we will be fine on our own and others will leave. As a result of this, they WILL make an example of us. Not because we won't survive without them, but because the EU can't survive if we do succeed. I think the biggest issue is it will be made very difficult for us to succeed. Not because we aren't capable, but because others know it could affect them, and yes that does make me feel un easy, but what can I do about it really?

 

obviously, I could be wrong. Yes, they're will be experts who will be better qualified to have an opinion than me. But truth be told. No one knows. That's my point....

 

The NHS has been on the cards to be gone for a while. It's been deliberately mis-managed and rigged to fail. Why? so they can privatise it like they're doing with the schools. Why? So they don't have to accept any liability. The academy thing was supposed to be to employ people from various other needed fields. What they done? Gave them a crap yearly budget which can just about afford a couple of cleaners as T.A's. NHS will go the same way.

 

This recent hoohar with the pound and stocks etc is from panic selling from the markets. If you'd have put loads of £ into the FTSE 100 before 5pm on Monday you'd have made a nice little earner selling them this morning. It's now above it's pre-Brexit figure.

 

Nobody knows which way it's going to pan out this Brexit thing it's all guesswork on both sides. But instead of thinking about GB in this poxy little EU club think of the words, GB Global. Sounds better to me  

[mond]

11 hours ago, Guns said:

 

If you were pro remain, It's no good calling everyone who voted out a thick Xenophobic racist. Your displeasure should be aimed towards the frankly hilariously bad Remain Camp's campaign.....

 

As opposed to praying on nationalism, populism and fear of the other? I know plenty of people, some in my own family who are xenophobic and voted out because of slavs and brown people. I even know a second generation Egyptian immigrant who voted out because he basically thinks he's white and hates people who aren't from the UK. Makes no sense to me or anyone else that knows him.  Yeah, the Remain campaign could have been better but the leave campaign was genuinely run through fear, ignorance and assuming the British public in general is stupid. I can see why they made that assumption too, because people were too stupid to actually look into the facts at hand. The Remain campaign really could only focus on the negative as it was about what we lose by leaving and the potential fall out from that. Finding a positive outlook by leaving, by an independent and respected source just didn't exist. 

 

People need to educate themselves, read acts, treaties and laws rather than rely on self serving politicians to explain it. Remember, it's rare for a career politician to actually be an expert in any field relevant to governance let alone being able to tell you reliably the good and bad sides of being in the EU. 

[dazp1976]

It was bad on both sides. 

Do you know what. That remain camp made it sound as bad as possible because they didn't want to go through a negotiation process with anyone be it EU or worldwide because it means actually doing some work and it backfired.

Cameron lied to everyone because he said at the last GE "vote us in and we'll get migration to 10's of 000's". More BS as it got worse, this fueled a lot of people, not because of numbers but because of a lack of trust in his establishment.

 

When many migrants were interviewed after the vote it's surprising how many of those voted out saying "it's too many". Many high leave areas were of high migrant residence. Are they "xenophobic and racist" too then? Or is it still only genuine Brits that are being branded with this statement?

[mond]

He knew that number was not real. Anyone should have figured that out. If 160,000 come here a year to pay to use our education system then to get it to 10's of thousands would be impossible. But again, that's the public not educating themselves and not being able to put stuff into context. All these see is a number and get in a panic.

[ostewart]

17 hours ago, The Hound said:

i liked her speech today, plain speaking, seems a pretty decent sort

 

but,

 

 

EDDIE IZ FOR PM ! WHOOP ! 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/theresa-may-conservative-party-leader-shes-no-progressive-conservative-a7109121.html

 

She is as bad as the rest, and to all of you who voted leave because of immigration, she's an immigrant yet wants to deport thousands... She can deport herself, although she probably earns more than £35,000 a year so she's allowed to stay.

 

I bet a lot more than half the british population earn a lot less than that, kick them out aswell? (me included)

Edited July 1, 2016 by ostewart

[Si Coe]

If we stayed in the EU, we knew where we were headed. Yes it's pretty bad, but we knew.

 

Out of the EU we have a chance to make a change. That was a powerful reason to vote leave, and a reason many did. But change can be better or worse. To use the AMG analogy earlier, it's like we have no faith in our original drivers skill, so we pull over and stick the next person to come past behind the wheel. If that's Lewis Hamilton then it's gonna be great, but it's more likely to be some drunk guy! 

 

Succeed or fail all depends on who ends up taking control. Forgive me if none of the contenders exactly inspire confidence. 

 

This is need not be a disaster, but it will be one.....

[mond]

Theresa May at least has both financial and foreign affairs experience outside of Government. Michael Gove was a journalist.  Either way to Tory leadership is a poisoned chalice and neither will be PM after the 2020 election. Boris will be Tory leader then and I'd put money on David Miliband being Labour leader assuming he can win a by-election seat.

[Si Coe]

Given the mess Gove made as education minister I wouldn't trust him in the slightest. May is the better candidate, but will they Tories follow her? I think she'd divide Tory loyalty in the same way Corbyn did Labour. 

[mond]

She is probably a preferred choice to Gove for the Tory back benchers. She is quite traditional.