The Law puplis places and public nuisance.

[Mini the minx]

In my mind a park = kids & families so i wouldn't tend to take my revo there as theres more likeihood of complaints, and bobbies on the beat or those community officer people.

I took my truck to an industrial estate at about 7pm in the evening to run it in - there usually away from houses, quite once the normal working day is over, and kids don't tend to play there.

I do not have any BMX tracks or skate parks where i live but we have a wood within the village (the burntwood, shropshire - google earth it) - me & a mate go there but mainly in late afternoon / evening when most of the walkers are going home & the kids are being called back for their tea's. If people are around we bring them back to ourselves & stop (idle) them straight away - Most are interested (and want to stand & watch us bash our trucks) but we are always aware of the noise factor so care is also taken when we see a dog.

If theres constant people traffic in our usual places we wander off to find a quiter spot as once you have 1 complaint theres more likihood of being banned from places all together so best to try & not draw attention to ourselves - as yet we have had no problems.

[GhostlyRock]

The police and old people are stupid you can't do nothing

Not all old people are stupid as with the police, mate.

I am both old AND a former police officer, its the same as saying 'all young kids are hoodies and thugs'.

As for the section 5, as a former police officer, this was what was used originally to combat football hooligans.

I think its something like this:-

Public Order Act 1936, sect. 5

Using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, whereby a breach of the peace is likely to be occasioned.

as you can tell, it was used quite often and covers a vast amount of things, so if someone feels threatened by anything you are doing.....you are breaking the law.

Dont blame the police mate, they didn't make the law.

[harjun]

to be honest, its all about the police man, some are nice, some are just absolute a*******.

Was it even a Police-man/women? or was it a community support officer, if it was a community support officer they have no right to confiscate your car or arrest you.

[papasmurf]

After a chat with my local bobby about this the best thing he can say is

if you are on public land then you can NOT run R/C cars but if you not on public land and you have concent from the land owner then you are ok.

He told me to speek to the head at the high school and ask if i can run mine on the school field (i need to as or it is trespassing) he thinks he will say yes .

so i gues you could just try that if you live nr a school

And carparks are still a no as they have full time public access

hope that helps Rob

[adamwatkins]

i have been pretty lucky then I guess. My 1/10 nitro onroad i used to bash for 1-2 hours at a time in a centre of town carpark about 6pm onwards. Its by an oldpeoples home too! :S never had any police trouble. Even though section 59's have been handed out to anyone who hangs around there in their cars at night.

[GhostlyRock]

to be honest, its all about the police man, some are nice, some are just absolute ass holes.

Was it even a Police-man/women? or was it a community support officer, if it was a community support officer they have no right to confiscate your car or arrest you.

Ah well I can see when I'm on a loser, but just one thing...

If you break the law you deserve to get nicked. The law is there to be obeyed, whether we agree with it or not.

As for the attitude, the same can be said of the general public when dealing with the police, generally if you're ok with them they are with you. Same in all walks of life.

And yes, the CSO's have no more powers than you or I, although some think they have.

[Mel]

It's all to do with if they are having a bad day or not lol because once we were running all our cars at Manshead School in Dunstable and then 2 police cars, 2 bikes and some on foot turned up but they were really nice. They thought they heard a mini bike but it turned out to be RCMad's FG lol so they just stood there a few minutes, asked a few questions about them and the left lol. he was probably one of these usual kiddy cops with a coat that is way too big for him throwing his weight around because he hasn't got a girlfriend hahaha

[harjun]

It's all to do with if they are having a bad day or not lol because once we were running all our cars at Manshead School in Dunstable and then 2 police cars, 2 bikes and some on foot turned up but they were really nice. They thought they heard a mini bike but it turned out to be RCMad's FG lol so they just stood there a few minutes, asked a few questions about them and the left lol. he was probably one of these usual kiddy cops with a coat that is way too big for him throwing his weight around because he hasn't got a girlfriend hahaha

yeh lol

[ear to ear]

I have already emailed my local police station and started the ball rolling to clarify the law first before I go any were and/or do any thing else with my Nitro buggy.

I respect what the former policeman says, but my actions have to be proved to be threatening with intent (violent) before its deamed a public order offence and I have to be on a residential street within sight or sound for it to be a nuisance and even then there has to be proof or complaint of menace.

Im not going to force this issue on any body but we all have our civil liberties.

[harjun]

to be honest, its mostly the reason i dont go to the park, you know, people these days will do anything to get money, if it involves saying the car hit you or something, or made their lungs hurt from the smell of nitro, or it killed their dog or something, i only have a small garden, but i dont mind just setting up my ramp there, and going for it.

I do sometimes take it to the park, but thats only in holidays, like on a weekday at about 12pm or something, when there's not many people there.

Sometimes when i go to the park there is a guy with his petrol RC helicopter, and we have some races lol, its quite fun

[ear to ear]

Thats the thing you see,

There is no way I could go to the same park at times of day you talk about as it is full of kids and parents alike and its just out of common sense that any wouldn't run a nitro car.

I chose the the particular car park at that time because I knew there would be little if no pedestrian traffic and there is a lot of space and line of sight to each entrance a both ends giving enough time to stop and get out of their way. And the fact its well away from the road and peoples homes to.

[ear to ear]

just got of the phone with the office who is dealing with my enquiry and he says there are 2 more things he has to clarify; 1 If there is a council by-law against the use of RC cars in Liverpool Parks and Gardens. 2 If if contravines the road traffic act as it was in a car park, but that will give an answer on the legality of using RC cars on the roads.

[Turner Boy]

just got of the phone with the office who is dealing with my enquiry and he says there are 2 more things he has to clarify; 1 If there is a council by-law against the use of RC cars in Liverpool Parks and Gardens. 2 If if contravines the road traffic act as it was in a car park, but that will give an answer on the legality of using RC cars on the roads.

That could be very interesting, as i own a few rather fast r/c's be interesting to know if i can legal use them on the roads, right where the gatso's are

but this thread has been quite informative, deffo staying tuned

[Matt B]

Scott it's a shame your not coming down to mine anymore, there is a gatso just off the end of my road

[Servo]

I too am interested in this, and have a few personal experiences to share.

I was at the same bash as Mel mentioned earlier, there were seven cops in all, and were just interested in catching people on minimotos. They hung around a bit and seemed interested. I gave them some of our stickers (another forum). I did wonder if they maybe should have been out trying to catch murderers or something.

Another time, at a bash at the bmx track in Dunstable there was a small fire in the field next door (kids) and by the time the fire brigade turned up it was out, but they hung around and watched us on the ramps a bit too, seeming quite interested.

It is all about getting along with other people, if you are in a public place. Whatever you are doing.

Just recently, somebody quite close to me started a pneumatic drill up at 0830 on a Sunday morning. Deffo thats a no-no. How about last Sat night, must have been very close to me, at a residence, a very loud fireworks event for about twenty minutes. Started 2215. Didn,t bother me, but what about people with young kids just gone to sleep?

Parks local to me usually have a list of by laws on a board near the entrance. Of all the ones I have read the closest I can find is...

`No petrol powered vehicles to be used`. Nitro, ok then. And then some really odd restrictions on when you can use electric gliders or not. (?)

I have run in public parks, usually just testing something or running in a motor, and treat any other people with respect, either turning it off or bringing it in close and letting it idle until they have gone by.

I have found way more people interested than annoyed. Strewth, a place some of us used to go for a bit of bashing ( which was by a large park) people used to buy an ice cream from the van, sit down and watch! One old couple, in thier 70,s asked if there was a charge. Ha!

I see it like this, if you are Nitro.

If you can, use sanctioned places, tracks and organised events.

Local park if you must, observing by laws and showing some respect to other park users.

Get BRCA insurance. It is so cheap it is a no-brainer.

But I bet 90% of you won,t bother.

A copper or cspo, cpso or whatever they are are unlikely to hassle you more than once. If you get unlucky, come back another day. I don,t think you will be high on their list of criminal activities, unless the guy is a complete knob end. `any arrests today then constable? Well I did get this kid with a model car..` Instant promotion, obviously.

Be sensible, and as I see it you can sometimes use public areas, within the law. Use your head, get insurance, be aware of other people.

[GhostlyRock]

I have already emailed my local police station and started the ball rolling to clarify the law first before I go any were and/or do any thing else with my Nitro buggy.

I respect what the former policeman says, but my actions have to be proved to be threatening with intent (violent) before its deamed a public order offence and I have to be on a residential street within sight or sound for it to be a nuisance and even then there has to be proof or complaint of menace.

Im not going to force this issue on any body but we all have our civil liberties.

Thats what I was trying to say with this particular law.

A person just has to feel threatened and its a public order offence, your actions don't have to be proved threatening UNLESS the officer is going to nick you. If not they will probably ask you to stop and if you refuse, carry on or argue then they will probably nick you under section 5, you only have to be in a public place for an offence to be committed.

This is the reason why section5 is so widely used by the police, it leaves so much scope for interpretation by the police. If you refuse to stop and someone is likely to 'cause a breach of the peace'

they can nick you. A wonderful law in respect of our civil liberties dont you think.

Basically, you only have to shout at someone in a street to technically commit the offence!

To get to the RC aspect, as you can see, if we use our cars/trucks in a public place they can be perceived as a danger to the public by some people. But we all do it, myself included. I use a few supermarket car parks and a bit of private land that I am not sure whose it is, so I cant ask permission. I'll just wait until the owner shows up!

[Eddieboi]

Its funny how the council etc pass all these byelaws yet majority of the public seem fine or interested in this hobby. Yes it is dangerous but there are precautions we as nitro car owners have to do to reduce the risk of injury or what so, There is no 100% safe way of using a nitro car in a public space, and if your like me and live in a built up area of SE london and the only real place to go to is the local park that doesnt leave you much choice but to use it.

Everytime I am out I am always aware of my surroundings, if there are kids or dogs about etc and I always check my car the night before and on the day before I start her up. Think once I had 3 families watch me doing jumps off a bmx ramp with their kids and all cheering and clapping and quite happily sitting there watching me and my friends play with our cars and we where always respectful to other members of the public when drivining...and yup Ive got BRCA insurance.

The way I see it is the council only cares about themselves and making it look like they are doing their job for the public and not realising the negative effect they are going to have on people like us making us seem the bad people...the council seem to be more interested in their pollution, noise and green targets than helping the other part of the community, im not saying the council are retards but that they need to see it from a bigger view...hell we all as might as well quit this hobby especially those of us that live in built up areas of places like london

[GhostlyRock]

Quite agree Eddieboi, besides the main government laws we have all the stupid bye-laws, some which where introduced 100 years+ ago, and they can still use them to stop us enjoying our hobby. There is a bye-law here that states it is illegal to play any musical instrument within 200 yds of any building, thats from 1836 and can still be used, its never been rescinded.

I know the majority of us are careful when using our gear, but there will always be one or two idiots, who'd probably think it fun to say, chase someones dog around a park, drive them at late hours, 10pm +, yes there is one near me!, etc. Its these idiots which cause all the nuisance and cause us all to have hassle.

I just wish we could have the same help from the local councils as the BMX fraternity.

[RobG]

I wonder what would happen if whilst out at the park you accidently hit someone with a RC car? I guess the person could sue (civil claim) - For this I think there would have to be at least a bruise or cut or something? but would there be a criminal charge? I guess this would depend on the damage? Would it be the same as if you hit some one with a real car - careless driving/dangerous driving? Or could you get done for assualt or something?? As it is an 'accident' surely not? I mean you could accidently hit someone with a frisbie or football and give them a nosebleed, I just hope there is some common sense left in the law.

[TerrorTrooper]

Ive been quite Fortunate it would appear.

Ive often been approached by Police Officers and CSO's while out with my Nitro Condor either in Parks, or Fields.

Fortunately there seems to be an abundance of Grassy fields (not quite parks) in my area so im almost always able to find an empty one, They usually watch for a little while, ask some questions and chat with me about the hobby.

The Police around My area are pretty decent and pleasant to be fair.

I did have one questionable incident with my Buggy though a couple of years ago., I was in the middle of nowhere down some Dunes when An Enviromental Agency Ranger approached me, So i turned off my buggy, He gave me some attitude and lecture about it being heritage coastline and informed me he was going to confiscate my buggy and inform the police.

I observed he had no radio, and wasnt about to let him walk away with my car, so i bluffed him. i kindly informed him that if he didnt take his hand off my car, it would be the last thing he ever touched with it. Fortunately, he didnt call my bluff and backed off, so i high tailed it out of there. Im not proud of resorting to intimidation, but i now know he had no right to do that so i feel it was justified.

To our Ex Policeman friend, i mean no Disrespect to you or the force, But not long ago, i was in a park while on holiday with some family, and some Fat, misserable bobby approached us when we were using a boomerang and told us we were causing a public disturbance, when my friend who lived locally gave a look of dissbelief and ask how? the fat pig took that as attitude and adopted a "holier than thou i am the law" approach and slapped him with a caution for causing a public disturbance. Its like anything, police, public, football fans whatever, its the minority that cause the trouble and the majority are tarred with that brush.

If thats your Idea of "If you break the law you pay the price" Then i would seriously hate to live in your world mate.

[midi-mania]

Unfortunatly hes right, they are dangerous to the public. In his case he wont care if you can drive it responsabily, he will just think that if a kid where to run into its path, there would be serious injuries and there would be no insurance. I belive insurance is the main problem.

you mean like this example http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=GWuJCG1yrMw

i hate bobbys, they have too much power and are constantly braking the law, the other month i was in the car with my brother and we were going to the hospital to see my dad, along came a 12 year old bobby in his astra with a huge dent along the side of it who stoped my brother just so he could have a look at his focus not becuase he thought it was stolen, had been speeding or anything

also i and my friend were once cautioned, when we were both about 9, for playing hide and seek in a park, we were hiding in a bush and a bobby thought we were upto no good

[Mr Terminator]

Never had any issues regarding the law and models so no input from me,I do however have Public Liability Insurance with the BMFA,which covers all models not just aircraft,I got this for the tanks that fire BB's as they require it by law,as for the nitro models,the land I use is public but no one around where I live gives a damn,we're a close knit community and if someone has an issue they'll usually have a word themselves but more people are interested in the models than how noisy they are,I suppose it's all down to where you live aswell...

[GhostlyRock]

To our Ex Policeman friend, i mean no Disrespect to you or the force, But not long ago, i was in a park while on holiday with some family, and some Fat, misserable bobby approached us when we were using a boomerang and told us we were causing a public disturbance, when my friend who lived locally gave a look of dissbelief and ask how? the fat pig took that as attitude and adopted a "holier than thou i am the law" approach and slapped him with a caution for causing a public disturbance. Its like anything, police, public, football fans whatever, its the minority that cause the trouble and the majority are tarred with that brush.

If thats your Idea of "If you break the law you pay the price" Then i would seriously hate to live in your world mate.

Thats what i am saying about the section 5 thing, it leaves vast interpretations. But, if you just step back and think about what you were doing for a minute. I'm just being a devils advocate here, but when you throw a boomerang are you in control of it? What if it gets caught in a sudden gust and injures a child? I know you probably wouldn't throw anywhere near children or to cause a danger, but if someone were to feel a bit scared and might come and tell to stop, you refuse, an argument follows, can you see how Mr Plod could feel justified in taking some action, a warning would probably have been best though, but in this modern day policing the old school style, ie; a talking to etc. is not allowed anymore. You have to have things written down in order to convince the higher ups that you are actually working! Nothing wrote down, what have you been doing all day? etc.

Like you say the minority spoil it.

Incidentally, and this will wind people up, when I was training, the training sergeant said to me 'This is the only job where, if you have a row with the wife before you come to work, you can take it out on the general public. Stop a car and if you look hard enough you can always find something wrong'.

He was a minority, and a moron.

[mad-wolfie]

Thats what i am saying about the section 5 thing, it leaves vast interpretations. But, if you just step back and think about what you were doing for a minute. I'm just being a devils advocate here, but when you throw a boomerang are you in control of it? What if it gets caught in a sudden gust and injures a child? I know you probably wouldn't throw anywhere near children or to cause a danger, but if someone were to feel a bit scared and might come and tell to stop, you refuse, an argument follows, can you see how Mr Plod could feel justified in taking some action, a warning would probably have been best though, but in this modern day policing the old school style, ie; a talking to etc. is not allowed anymore. You have to have things written down in order to convince the higher ups that you are actually working! Nothing wrote down, what have you been doing all day? etc.

Like you say the minority spoil it.

Like my learned friend here, I'm also a former employee of the constabulary. Section 5 is basically a public order law, & as was already quoted added basically so the Police had the powers to deal with football hooligans & the like... if you watch these "Street Crime" programmes on the TV when there are gangs of oiks outside pubs fighting, more often than not they are always locked up for public order offences.

Technically speaking, running your RC car & being approached by the local plod in itself isn't an arrestable offence, however arguing with him & failing to comply etc you open up a new can of worms. For example if he asks your name & address & you refuse or answer with a false name, he then has a power of arrest under section 25.

If when i as on the beat i ever encountered a gang of kids playing with RC cars I'd of stood & watched them for a while, talked about what they are doing (ask questions about the cars, how much they cost) & given suitable advice - such as don't use the cars where kids are playing or old people are walking dogs etc or telling them of a better location to use their cars & of course where there is going to be no noise or moaning old duffers are going to complain. It always amazes me that pensioners who are deaf as a post suddenly develop radar when people are out to enjoy themselves & insist on complaining.

Sadly though there are bobbies out there that put the uniform on & give the force a bad name because they take a dislike to everyone & generally like badgering kids instead of trying to win their trust & it seems you have encountered such a bobby & in my experience, if he keeps baiting the hook, sooner or later he knows that you will bite & he will have another notch on his truncheon.

Remember these days the police are working to league tables - the more scrotes they arrest, the higher the figures go.. higher arrest figures = the public are reassured, sadly the league table system doesn't paint the true picture but "statistically" they look impressive when on a public newsletter that last month they as a force made XX arrests & on paper at least they are tackling crime - hence why the motorists seem to get picked on the most as it's easier to stop a car than it is to catch a burglar & put them in prison. The police are also these days (thanks to Nu-labore) run more as a business, giving out fines makes money for the force that the governemnt have taken away, hence why so many speed camera's are appearing & there is more emphasis on giving out fines for petty crimes rather than going out stopping "real" criminals that actually costs the force money, anyway i'm going off the subject at hand, although i dare bet my friend also agrees.

One thing i will say, if the officer says the argument about noise, he has no powers to enforce the law.. in a nutshell he would have to send for the council to turn up with a noise inspector who would turn up with a dB meter & asses the situation & then only the council would have the legal right to prosecute you, so if he says he has a power to confiscate the car because it's noisy, he hasn't the power to do so. Ask the officer if you can read & sign his pocketbook entry to say that he has warned you if you doubt the law.. but remember the more obnoxious you are to the officer, the more determined he will be to make your life a misery.

Best advice i can give, bite your lip & find somewhere else to go & use your car. Don't give the ratbag the satisfaction of getting an easy collar (which is probably why he's picking on you). You could also go to the local council to get their permission or suitable advice of places to use your car - this may take a bit of legwork, but if you have written permission off the local authority to use your car in a particular place & then PC plod walks over & starts laying the law down, then if you can provide proof of permission, he will have no alternative to walk away with his tail between his legs.

Edited August 1, 2008 by mad-wolfie

[Mini the minx]

It's all just the world gone mad.

Like Mr T said in a close knit community peolpe know who each other are & deal with issues in a sensible manner by talking it through.

Just send me back to the 60's i'd be more than happy with a simpler life, when communities stuck together, people looked out for each other, no law suits just cause someone tripped over a step into your house (and there was no sign telling em it was there) - It just takes abit of common sense when running nitro RC's - you wouldn't bash it in the local high street so way in a park where kids hang out

90% of police use their heads and deal with the situation in the best manner as said by mad wolfie but you'll always get the power crazed ones, jus way of the world - but its not fair to tarnish them all with the same brush they do a hell of a differcult job, know i couldn't do it.