FTX Carnage Brushed - Brushless Mod Slipping?

[turtletom100]

I have watched a video on youtube and they suggested changing the pinion size to help cogging but what way would I go (larger or smaller) and what effect/damage will this have to the car?

[capri-boy]

You can't check for cogging by rolling the car backwards and forwards.

Sensored motors have little or nothing to do with the timing marks round the can.

 

Cogging is when the ESC doesn't know exactly what position the rotor is in the motor, so the firing order of the motor is *slightly* wrong, making it jump around under smaller throttle openings, once it gets up to speed, the slightly poor timing is all but invisible, as the inertia of the car masks it. A sensored motor has a sensor which tells the ESC exactly what position the rotor is in, so the firing order and timing is all but perfect at all throttle positions.

 

You'd know if it was a sensored set up as you would have a sensor cable (flat thing, 6 or 8 wires, plug on each end) connecting the ESC and the motor.

 

It even says at the bottom of your program card, "Motor Type"

 

 

Little different from the explanation's I've read but make a lot of sense, thus manually moving the motor will show nowt obv!

[turtletom100]

Little different from the explanation's I've read but make a lot of sense, thus manually moving the motor will show nowt obv!

Does make sense and after watching a youtube video from squirrel about cogging I about 90% sure that is what it is as with speed it don't make the slipping/grinding noise, and if I hold the car off the floor it works fine (maybe a tiny slip/grind noise when go backwards and forwards.) In the video he says change the pinion to a more or less toothed pinion but i'm not sure what way to go with it as don't want the motor running to hot especially at the moment because I not got a heat gun yet I have spent a lot of money on rc in the last month as trying to do this conversion and do a nitro firestorm (which I have had running tonight just need some tweaking)

[F1aw1ess]

did you ever get to the bottom of this, im having the same issue with an ftx bugsta

[Nickarla]

From what I can see the central shaft is turning in time with the motor but there is no movement. Therefore the mesh is fine and the slipper looks fine. The only thing I can think that’s left is that the crown in both the front gear box and back gear box are both wrecked. Bit of a coincidence that both would have gone though. Did you have some bad landings on the last trip out?

 

Does it make a noise when you break hard?

Edited November 26, 2019 by Nickarla

[Manuel Costa]

Hey! I'm having the same issues with my FTX outlaw - and I cant seem to find a solution did you manage to solve this problem?

[sideshowgaz]

This is 100% a cogging issue and is usually caused by getting a motor with too high a KV rating.  Higher KV = higher speeds, but also equals less torque.

I tried converting my Bugsta to brushless and put in a 4300kv motor using the original 17t pinion.  On 2s I pretty much had to kick it to get it moving but bloody hell was it fast.  Too fast in my opinion.

After trying 3 different motors, 4300kv, 3300kv and 2200kv and numerous different pinions I have now got a setup I like.

I now have a 2200KV motor, with a 15t pinion, 5000mah 45c lipo, which in a race with my brothers car is exactly the same top speed as a "standard" brushless bugsta, and I would say 25-50% faster than a "standard" brushed Bugsta.  It is really drivable with minimal cogging.

If I want to go faster I put my 3s lipo in and get 50% more speed (till I hit something).

I hope that helps when people are trying to find a decent brushless setup as I had a lot of pain to get to where I am today

[Iain .R]

9 hours ago, sideshowgaz said:

This is 100% a cogging issue and is usually caused by getting a motor with too high a KV rating.  Higher KV = higher speeds, but also equals less torque.

I tried converting my Bugsta to brushless and put in a 4300kv motor using the original 17t pinion.  On 2s I pretty much had to kick it to get it moving but bloody hell was it fast.  Too fast in my opinion.

After trying 3 different motors, 4300kv, 3300kv and 2200kv and numerous different pinions I have now got a setup I like.

I now have a 2200KV motor, with a 15t pinion, 5000mah 45c lipo, which in a race with my brothers car is exactly the same top speed as a "standard" brushless bugsta, and I would say 25-50% faster than a "standard" brushed Bugsta.  It is really drivable with minimal cogging.

If I want to go faster I put my 3s lipo in and get 50% more speed (till I hit something).

I hope that helps when people are trying to find a decent brushless setup as I had a lot of pain to get to where I am today

I'm still having mine   as I need to buy some more pinions to try . .

And a stronger esc . Once iv done that   if it's not as fast as it was brushed   the brushless set up going in the bin . And it be back to brushed.   

[Iain .R]

Well I'm still having problems with my carnage  I have now a 60A esc . 3300kv and 3900kv motors 49T 32 dp and 9t 32 dp 

Still wont move on grass butnin road once its going it's a nutter on speed . Way to dam fast . 

 

So what size motor you recommend  2200 kv ??? 

As iv binned all the brusless stuff and put the brushed stuff back on now I get to use the carnage on and off road.  

So far I think brushless sucks .  

 

[chewbacca]

On 19/04/2021 at 17:28, Iain .R said:

Well I'm still having problems with my carnage  I have now a 60A esc . 3300kv and 3900kv motors 49T 32 dp and 9t 32 dp 

Still wont move on grass butnin road once its going it's a nutter on speed . Way to dam fast . 

 

So what size motor you recommend  2200 kv ??? 

As iv binned all the brusless stuff and put the brushed stuff back on now I get to use the carnage on and off road.  

So far I think brushless sucks .  

 

Brushless kicks butt mate. You're just doing it wrong somewhere. 

[capri-boy]

On 19/04/2021 at 17:28, Iain .R said:

Well I'm still having problems with my carnage  I have now a 60A esc . 3300kv and 3900kv motors 49T 32 dp and 9t 32 dp 

Still wont move on grass butnin road once its going it's a nutter on speed . Way to dam fast . 

 

So what size motor you recommend  2200 kv ??? 

As iv binned all the brusless stuff and put the brushed stuff back on now I get to use the carnage on and off road.  

So far I think brushless sucks .  

 

 

Firstly - KV is ok for a lightweight 4WD 1:!0.  What size motor are you using ?  Secondly the fact it won't move on grass suggests there's something wrong - normally I'd suggest it's over geared for the motor.  I wouldn't rule out something being at fault either.  

[Iain .R]

4 hours ago, capri-boy said:

 

Firstly - KV is ok for a lightweight 4WD 1:!0.  What size motor are you using ?  Secondly the fact it won't move on grass suggests there's something wrong - normally I'd suggest it's over geared for the motor.  I wouldn't rule out something being at fault either.  

Hi how do I fix it  as I have the sizes on the thread of the motor it's a 3300kv  motor 

Here what it says about it  

Brushless Motor
Features:
4 pole 12 slot high-torque motor design.
3.175mm shaft diameter.
High purity copper windings maximizes efficiency.
Precision engineered for maximum energy conversion.
Precision balanced rotor, smoothness for best reliability and maximum RPM.
Suit for 1/10 scale RC car.

 

it a 3650  3300kv brushless motor . 

iv even put a 3650   3900kv brushless motor and it still cogged spluttered .on grass infact the 3900kv one was worse than the 3300kv .   

 

yet all wheels are free moving the spur inwentnfrom a 65T to 49T . Pinion 18T all way  down to 9T pinion still only works on road gravel   grass  it go but you stop wont move . 

 

I have upped all the settings  gone all thro them  upping them and lowering them  

still wont  work on grass . 

I have put the brushed motor back on so I can use the car . If you have any help plz let me know . Thanks 

 

[Iain .R]

4 hours ago, chewbacca said:

Brushless kicks butt mate. You're just doing it wrong somewhere. 

Nope not on my carnage . Splutters chuggs like an asthmatic after a marathon in the desart .... 

[capri-boy]

Somethings amiss.  Is it a proper 3650 motor?  Not onw of the 380 sized motors in a 540 case?  What battery source are you using?

[Redback]

53 minutes ago, capri-boy said:

Somethings amiss.  Is it a proper 3650 motor?  Not onw of the 380 sized motors in a 540 case?  What battery source are you using?

We have gone through all these questions before as hes posted this exact issue over multiple threads, its a 520 motor on 40amp esc, theres pages in the outlaw, carnage & vantage threads with people trying to help him with the issue.

 

20 hours ago, Iain .R said:

On 29/04/2021 at 19:58, chewbacca said:

Brushless kicks butt mate. You're just doing it wrong somewhere. 

Nope not on my carnage . Splutters chuggs like an asthmatic after a marathon in the desart .... 

Basically you got the wrong combo or not a good enough esc and are kicking a dead horse trying to get it to work.
It would make more sense to me to keep it to one thread.
Or maybe send the entire car and brushless system to a model shop and let them either get it to work or tell you whats wrong,
Im' unsure how much more info you will get from the forums as its going around in circles.

 

[Iain .R]

10 minutes ago, Redback said:

We have gone through all these questions before as hes posted this exact issue over multiple threads, its a 520 motor on 40amp esc, theres pages in the outlaw, carnage & vantage threads with people trying to help him with the issue.

 

Basically you got the wrong combo or not a good enough esc and are kicking a dead horse trying to get it to work.
It would make more sense to me to keep it to one thread.
Or maybe send the entire car and brushless system to a model shop and let them either get it to work or tell you whats wrong,
Im' unsure how much more info you will get from the forums as its going around in circles.

 

It's a 3650  motor .

 

3650 3300KV Brushless Motor + 60A ESC .

 

As it's in diffrent thread as I have tried it in the carnage AND THE outlaw . 

As for going to a shop  if that's the case why ask on here  I thought that was the point   ask on here to see if you can help   . 

In sure there are others who might have had the same problme as I'm having  and can help . 

 

 

[Redback]

9 minutes ago, Iain .R said:

It's a 3650  motor .

 

3650 3300KV Brushless Motor + 60A ESC .

 

As it's in diffrent thread as I have tried it in the carnage AND THE outlaw . 

As for going to a shop  if that's the case why ask on here  I thought that was the point   ask on here to see if you can help   . 

In sure there are others who might have had the same problme as I'm having  and can help . 

 

 

thats not a 540 motor or it would say 3654, its all been said before your asking the same questions about the same electrics in different threads, I'm not saying don't ask, i'm saying you have asked and gone through this all before and are going around in circles, so maybe its time to try another approach?

[Iain .R]

2 minutes ago, Redback said:

thats not a 540 motor or it would say 3654, its all been said before your asking the same questions about the same electrics in different threads, I'm not saying don't ask, i'm saying you have asked and gone through this all before and are going around in circles, so maybe its time to try another approach?

That's what it says on the box   . 

Well Tuesday I'm getting a hobbywing  and then we can see how good these are . 

[Redback]

Just now, Iain .R said:

That's what it says on the box   . 

Well Tuesday I'm getting a hobbywing  and then we can see how good these are . 

The box is saying you have a 36 diameter motor thats 50 long. Assuming your looking at the max10 3652 combos, I can guarantee you right away if your having issues with one brushless system hobbywing wont be a magic fix.
I had this exact issue, and the hobbywing still cogged, again im repeating what ive said in DM's and threads so i will just wish you luck.

[Iain .R]

4 hours ago, capri-boy said:

Somethings amiss.   What battery source are you using?

2s lipo 5200    50C . 

 

I just.dont get why it wont work on grass (short grass as well) .when other carnages .vantage ..bugsta   all work . 

Iv put the spurs .pinions  on that others use . 

There must be somthing wrong  but no ones spotted it yet . On any of the threads . 

Keep going round till problem sorted 

 An when I buy the hobbywing set up  if that chuggs then its going back. 

As what I have the only ftx carnage that runs on brushed . 

How do others run theres an if I fit mine out with it then it should run awell.  

 

. 

[capri-boy]

12 hours ago, Iain .R said:

2s lipo 5200    50C . 

 

I just.dont get why it wont work on grass (short grass as well) .when other carnages .vantage ..bugsta   all work . 

Iv put the spurs .pinions  on that others use . 

There must be somthing wrong  but no ones spotted it yet . On any of the threads . 

Keep going round till problem sorted 

 An when I buy the hobbywing set up  if that chuggs then its going back. 

As what I have the only ftx carnage that runs on brushed . 

How do others run theres an if I fit mine out with it then it should run awell.  

 

. 

 

I asked about battery as if it's not upto providing enough amps (either duff or just low spec) then the initial draw getting moving (or moving in a high friction environment) would cause issues like cogging.   I ask about motor size as there's a slew of motors around advertised as 540 sized but are actually 380 sized in a 540 outer can - you can tell the case in that the motor heat fins go into the can diameter.  These motors are not in my experience upto the job.

 

I've converted many brushed strada's and vantages/outlaws to brushless with similar electrics and never had an issue.  I certainly have never needed to swap the spur either.  3000-4000kv 4 pole motor, that 540 sized or longer with a 60a esc and it should be fine.   So I'd suggest you go back to stock gearing (for the BL factory version) and try to eliminate what's faulty or not 'good enough'.  Hobbywing electrics are a perfectly good system.

 

With my MOD hat on please keep this to a single thread - if you don't have one of your own make one and keep it in one place.

[Iain .R]

1 hour ago, capri-boy said:

 

I asked about battery as if it's not upto providing enough amps (either duff or just low spec) then the initial draw getting moving (or moving in a high friction environment) would cause issues like cogging.   I ask about motor size as there's a slew of motors around advertised as 540 sized but are actually 380 sized in a 540 outer can - you can tell the case in that the motor heat fins go into the can diameter.  These motors are not in my experience upto the job.

 

I've converted many brushed strada's and vantages/outlaws to brushless with similar electrics and never had an issue.  I certainly have never needed to swap the spur either.  3000-4000kv 4 pole motor, that 540 sized or longer with a 60a esc and it should be fine.   So I'd suggest you go back to stock gearing (for the BL factory version) and try to eliminate what's faulty or not 'good enough'.  Hobbywing electrics are a perfectly good system.

 

With my MOD hat on please keep this to a single thread - if you don't have one of your own make one and keep it in one place.

Hi . The threads are I had it in the outlaw 1st  which was on the outlaw  thread  then as it's a bigger truck I swapped it all to the carnage   so asked in the carnage thread     then it was suggested to make a thread about it   so I did    so why I'm asking in three threads .  

I have had replys off ppl in all 3 thread who are  not in the same three threads and again from ppl in all three . 

.

I'm getting the hobbywing set up Tuesday as so many been banging on about hobbywing stuff dont buy a thing else   nothing else is up to the job  hobbywing hobbywing  got to the point I refused to buy it just due to the harping on about hobbywing . .

But saying that having a rc car I cant use because off ppl recommendations  is bite your nose to spite your face thing .  

.i dont know about the motors i just go by what was on the add and bought them . 

If there not the right size (wrongly advertised) as i posted the link to the parts i bought  infact  another member posted the link and I bought what they said would be better to use.  

So other members will have seen what I bought so if they know about motors and it's wrong then they should have said when I 1st said about it not working   but most kept on about buy hobbywing buy cheap buy twice  . 

I'm only asking for help as I'm trying to get my car working . . So thanks for your help and all others who have helped . 

I will put the hobbywing set up in weds/thurs and I'll just post if it works or not and that be it .  .. 

[rawbhp]

Did you find a solution to this? I have the same problem with my FTX Zorro. 

 

Fitted this to replace the standard brushed https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07YDNVX9L/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Everything looks fine including the pinion mesh and it spins up ok off the ground. Fine once at speed too. But it struggles to get going and can't take even light grass - just get a horrible clicking, grinding sound as the motor goes one way then the other repeatedly. 

 

I'm going to try a card to programme it but if that doesn't work, I don't know what the solution is...

[walkbythesea]

6 minutes ago, rawbhp said:

Did you find a solution to this? I have the same problem with my FTX Zorro. 

 

Fitted this to replace the standard brushed https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07YDNVX9L/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Everything looks fine including the pinion mesh and it spins up ok off the ground. Fine once at speed too. But it struggles to get going and can't take even light grass - just get a horrible clicking, grinding sound as the motor goes one way then the other repeatedly. 

 

I'm going to try a card to programme it but if that doesn't work, I don't know what the solution is...

Hullo and welcome ✌️
 

That’s a very tiny motor can for a big truck, it’s relatively high kv rating means it’s spinning fast with low torque - which is why it can’t get going. 

[rawbhp]

13 hours ago, walkbythesea said:

Hullo and welcome ✌️
 

That’s a very tiny motor can for a big truck, it’s relatively high kv rating means it’s spinning fast with low torque - which is why it can’t get going. 

Thanks! 

 

That was my concern when I bought it but the reviews included people with similar models and they didn't have issues (assuming they're real of course...).  The weird thing is that even if I apply light pressure to one axle (both wheels) with my hands whilst elevated, it just starts jittering.  It's not like I'm trying to drive it over really difficult ground.  The Zorro doesn't weigh much more than a Vantage or Carnage either.

 

I'll have a look at a lower kv rating as an alternative...

 

Thanks for your reply 🙂