We need to talk about cheating.....

[Fly In My Soup]

Well... Those who race RC...or even loosely follow it...will know the series of events in the year that attracts massive press within the entire industry is the IFMAR worlds.....

 

Most years this passes without exception....same old faces winning the same old titles....except this year's Australian IFMAR worlds event...and one man in particular......cue Davide ongaro....

 

Who has now been dubbed "Davide ongyro" ....why..???

 

Well after another blistering main race with his Associated buggy...the up and coming Davide finished top of the podium... Which isn't unusual for the young Italian racer, who regularly finishes in the top three... What was unusual was happening on the sidelines...

Complaints and rumours abound that Davide was utilising a gyro/esa in his buggy... Something which is "illegal" in IFMAR races ( and almost all organised RC racing )... And with mounting pressure from North American competitors IFMAR decided to inspect all three podium finishers rigs....

 

Most of the inspection time was spent on ongaros rig..completely dismantling Rx, Rx packs, servos and even radio menus where picked over with a fine tooth comb.... The result...no evidence found of cheating.

Believe it or not...this is not the first time ongaro has been accused of using a gyro or esa tech in his rig....yet again, nothing ever proven....

 

Now this situation isn't a one off in RC racing.... Numerous racers and teams have been caught out using gyros in competitive racing... The majority few of them originating from italy and some where top level racers.... Some of their rigs included gyro & esa built into various devices...leading suspicion straight to the door of tech manufacturers and racers alike.. this was compounded by industry insiders stating how tech has come far enough for stability control technology to be embedded to a point that even an IFMAR inspection team couldn't define if gyro / esa software/hardware was even present....

 

Here's a video showcasing ongaro skill on the sticks...ignore the click bait title...it's referring to him being naturally fast...

 

So what would be the motivation here?? Well for one...money.... Some reckon that even one IFMAR title can be worth $500,000 over a driver's career...

 

 

So with that kind of money at stake...company and personal reputations too..... Was this a case of a straight up cheater? Or just talented young man who's lived and breathed RC since he was young showing the old boys how it should be done?

 

One thing's for sure..... RC racing is mired in rules and regs.... Many of which just serve to stifle new talent from joing the racing scene altogether.... A refreshing shake up is what's needed ...... wether that be more scale realism in the sport....gyros being classed as legal so every racer can push to the limit and give the crowd an awesome spectacle.....or a maybe new class altogether......

 

What do you guys think..?

 

 

[J.K]

Surely a gyro is quite a significant piece of kit to install in a 1:8 buggy - the nitro's in particular have very little extra space for your transponder let alone anything else. I would've thought a gyro would also need to be mounted directly to the chassis for it to be any good so that rules out stuffing one into the rx box to rattle about. What i'm getting at is, if he's running a gyro then surely the scrutineers would've found it if they stripped his rig down?

 

Wether it's RC or F1, all teams are the same - they're always pushing the legalities in search for that extra tenth, I hope not, but perhaps it's creeping into the RC scene? 

 

Maifield was sacked by Reds after this event due to secretly running an OS engine. Tessmann found himself in hot water after the NEO final last year when he ran BETA tyres whilst contractually obliged to run ProLine. But of course it's the Americans who are first to complain here.

 

I've been following the worlds and the Euro's the last few years and Ongaro has definitely been "up and coming" and improving at every event. It was only a matter of time before he reached the top. Legitimately I hope!

[Fly In My Soup]

15 minutes ago, James1986 said:

Surely a gyro is quite a significant piece of kit to install in a 1:8 buggy - the nitro's in particular have very little extra space for your transponder let alone anything else. I would've thought a gyro would also need to be mounted directly to the chassis for it to be any good so that rules out stuffing one into the rx box to rattle about. What i'm getting at is, if he's running a gyro then surely the scrutineers would've found it if they stripped his rig down?

 

Well all I'll add is ..the tech already exists to integrate esa/gyro tech into  existing tech....rumours are, there's a possibility that production companies could add this tech to existing tech via software / hardware that's undectetable without scanning the chip boards with expensive software....

 

So in theory it could be added a standard servo / esc board without you even knowing it....

 

Bit like the whole volkswagen emissions software scandal...or the Samsung eco tv scandal...etc etc

[mond]

Gyros are tiny these days. There's no getting around having one physically in the car because you can't mimic it electronically but how small can you make one? Could it fit inside a resistor on a circuit board?

1 hour ago, James1986 said:

Surely a gyro is quite a significant piece of kit to install in a 1:8 buggy - the nitro's in particular have very little extra space for your transponder let alone anything else. I would've thought a gyro would also need to be mounted directly to the chassis for it to be any good so that rules out stuffing one into the rx box to rattle about. What i'm getting at is, if he's running a gyro then surely the scrutineers would've found it if they stripped his rig down?

 

Wether it's RC or F1, all teams are the same - they're always pushing the legalities in search for that extra tenth, I hope not, but perhaps it's creeping into the RC scene? 

 

Maifield was sacked by Reds after this event due to secretly running an OS engine. Tessmann found himself in hot water after the NEO final last year when he ran BETA tyres whilst contractually obliged to run ProLine. But of course it's the Americans who are first to complain here.

 

I've been following the worlds and the Euro's the last few years and Ongaro has definitely been "up and coming" and improving at every event. It was only a matter of time before he reached the top. Legitimately I hope!

AVC and TSM gyros are in the receivers, which are no larger than standard sized recievers. Just needs to be stuck down for them to work. Hobbyking sell one that's the size of a pound coin. Would be quite obvious if he was using a separate one outside of the reciever but you'd need to take apart the reciever to know there isn't one inside, assuming it's not so small it's on the circuit board, hidden as a chip. You could certainly take a Spectrum AVC receiver and stick it in a non AVC reciever case. The only way to be sure it's not being used when racing is spot checks - take the car and radio away at the same time, without the driver having time to react.  Or ban radio systems that can use built in gyros.

 

 

[Tug]

I don't think it should be allowed in RC, not racing at least. 

 

I get the F1 reference, that's quite a valid point, but I'm not yet ready to accept that kind of tech in racing toys. 

 

A similar scenario was the cyclist that had a motor and ESC built in to the seat stem! And he was flabbergasted when he was accused of cheating! Then why hide it in a tube that you're sat on?

[Fly In My Soup]

50 minutes ago, Tug said:

I don't think it should be allowed in RC, not racing at least. 

 

I get the F1 reference, that's quite a valid point, but I'm not yet ready to accept that kind of tech in racing toys. 

 

A similar scenario was the cyclist that had a motor and ESC built in to the seat stem! And he was flabbergasted when he was accused of cheating! Then why hide it in a tube that you're sat on?

 

I remember this... It was a small brushless motor /ESC that had been built into the bike for pedal assist....

 

Thing is....he didn't construct the frame...so who built the bike? Was he actually aware? 

 

This story has similar traits I suppose

 

Plausible deniability?

[Fly In My Soup]

1 hour ago, mond said:

Gyros are tiny these days. There's no getting around having one physically in the car because you can't mimic it electronically but how small can you make one? Could it fit inside a resistor on a circuit board?

AVC and TSM gyros are in the receivers, which are no larger than standard sized recievers. Just needs to be stuck down for them to work. Hobbyking sell one that's the size of a pound coin. Would be quite obvious if he was using a separate one outside of the reciever but you'd need to take apart the reciever to know there isn't one inside, assuming it's not so small it's on the circuit board, hidden as a chip. You could certainly take a Spectrum AVC receiver and stick it in a non AVC reciever case. The only way to be sure it's not being used when racing is spot checks - take the car and radio away at the same time, without the driver having time to react.  Or ban radio systems that can use built in gyros.

 

 

 

Spot on dude....random spot checks would be a neat idea...

 

I've also read about Moto X cheating...it got so bad that they introduced a buy rule....whereby whoever wins has to sell their rig to an opponent team on the spot...

 

Which if it's 'stock' bike ....should be ok

 

Cut down on cheaters no end

 

1 hour ago, mond said:

Or ban radio systems that can use built in gyros.

 

27mhz revival....receiver the size of a small phone?

[Fly In My Soup]

I found this online, this is a 3mmx3mmx0.9mm 6 axis gyro....and this tech was released in 2012!!!!

 

 

 

The MPU-6500, a second-generation 6-axis MotionTracking device by InvenSense is the world’s smallest 6-axis device. Housed in a 3 x 3 x 0.9mm QFN package, the device lowers power, improves performance and cost, in addition to being small.

Addressing stringent high-performance location-based services, the device lowers power 60%, reduces package size 45%, and provides major accelerometer nose, bias, and sensitivity improvements.

 

The single-chip MPU-6500 combines a 3-axis accelerometer, 3-axis gyroscope, and on-board Digital Motion Processor (DMP). It operates at a mere 1.8 volts, consuming only 6.1mW of power in full operation. With breakthrough gyroscope performance of ±5dps zero-rate-output and 0.01deps/vHz of noise, the device delivers dramatically improved accelerometer specs, including a typical offset of ±60mg, 250µg/vHz of noise and 18mA of current in low-power mode.

[babylon]

Something like that would have to be installed at a manufacturing level, And I can't see any company in this hobby going through the time, Expense, And possible bad publicity to fit one of these on the snide just to help one or two drivers or teams, With no real return for the risk involved.

 This isn't F1, If a driver is going to pull a fast one, It's gonna be something basic like a small gyro or receiver,  And a bit of hope that no one checks,.

 

What's also funny, Is the kind response you would get back if you was to ask about a stick transmitter. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by babylon

[Fly In My Soup]

22 hours ago, babylon said:

Something like that would have to be installed at a manufacturing level, And I can't see any company in this hobby going through the time, Expense, And possible bad publicity to fit one of these on the snide just to help one or two drivers or teams, With no real return for the risk involved.

 This isn't F1, If a driver is going to pull a fast one, It's gonna be something basic like a small gyro or receiver,  And a bit of hope that no one checks,.

 

What's also funny, Is the kind response you would get back if you was to ask about a stick transmitter. 

 

Couldn't really agree with that... I think that thinking is naïve...if there's money ...and subsequent after sales involved in a product.... Then there's reason enough right there

 

If you're thinking these are backyard 90's events...you're wrong..these are large scale events that cost a lot to host. Pretty much every RC company turns out from around the world.

 

There's been so many instances of cheating in RC racing over the last ten years I couldn't possiblly count it on both hands and feet....

 

See this article back from 2011!

https://www.rccaraction.com/everybodys-cheating/

 

@Tugheres that bike guy, he was actually Italian too lol

 

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/53-year-old-italian-amateur-cyclist-caught-motor-bike-344445

[Tug]

At work, will read thoroughly later. ?

[babylon]

1 hour ago, Fly In My Soup said:

Couldn't really agree with that... I think that thinking is naïve...if there money ...and subsequent after sales involved in a product.... Then there reason enough right there

 

You was the one that bought up VW, No doubt there was money and subsequent after sales involved in that, But good publicity and brand recognition takes years, and In there case, Billions of dollars to build up, They are now having to spend all the billions in profits they made from cheating trying to win back trust.

 

Maybe VW thought the returns would be worth the risk in the end with all the billions to be made, Not sure I could say the same for Futaba or Sanwa. Like your example, A motor built into the bottom bracket of a frame is something someone could do in there shed, But asking a manufacturer to do it for you at the build stage and keep it quiet is a whole different ball game.

[Fly In My Soup]

2 hours ago, babylon said:

A motor built into the bottom bracket of a frame is something someone could do in there shed, But asking a manufacturer to do it for you at the build stage and keep it quiet is a whole different ball game.

 

Yeah get what you're saying....asking a manufacturer is one thing....being supplied with gear you didn't know had extra tech installed is another..

 

2 hours ago, babylon said:

Maybe VW thought the returns would be worth the risk in the end with all the billions to be made, Not sure I could say the same for Futaba or Sanwa.

 

Yeah get your point here too...Futaba only, I say only..., Take $625,000,000 in revenue each year.... As opposed to v.a.g group taking 265 billion each year....

 

But then again...if a company so large can blatantly cheat laws then why wouldn't a smaller company?

 

I personally think ongaro is just a talented young driver that's living in his lifetime, and that ruffles a few feathers with the dinosaurs in the sport...

 

Could be wrong....

[babylon]

2 hours ago, Fly In My Soup said:

But then again...if a company so large can blatantly cheat laws then why wouldn't a smaller company?

Because they are so big, VW have had to do different things in different parts of the world, In the US they have had to buy back customer cars, They are so big they could afford that, Ultimately the loss of money is bad, But the loss customer confidence is worse, But they have the time and money to try and earn that back, For Futaba the loss of customer confidence is very bad, The loss of money is very bad, Both together can put the company under very quick, with no time to earn any of them back.

 The smaller you are, The more you have to loose, And the quicker you can loose it.  

[RCbutcher]

It makes good sense. 

 

If italian team of the 90s race grade elecs company but now MEH. I could see them making special hardware to integrate elecs. Even opening the lipo packs shows they know the levels that can be took. 

 

Wasnt WRC just the same. Toyota corolla hidden something inside their car and cheated the season. If it was toyota they all tried tricks. Sounds like Italy more than others the way its worded lol. 

[babylon]

Ferrari F1 springs to mind this year.

[RCbutcher]

Ingenuity is skill too though lol. 

[Fly In My Soup]

6 minutes ago, RCbutcher said:

Ingenuity is skill too though lol. 

 

True !

[brit_bulldog]

The reason why Ongaro has been accused of using a gyro is simple.

Back in Italy they have races like Padova's various one of championships where Gyros and additives have been fully allowed. 

Ongaro and other Italians have been seen to be using , hence he has always been known to have used one.

I have tested Gyros and they are not easy to set up and use, But i can tell you Ongaro is super super talented, I think they needed the big tech check after to fully put to bed any rumours of cheating at the worlds and to give him the credit he deserves.

 

[Nitroholic]

Simple solution ....

 

Supply teams with sealed 'control' servos for use in racing. All supplied and fitted at the meeting under controlled conditions under scrutineering 'park ferme' style conditions. Then do the same with receivers...and have the two hard wired when supplied to the racer.

 

Then try and cheat. In order for a gyro to work, or any other kind of stability control, it has to be able to drive the servo in response to it's internal measuring. If you prevent that from happening by supplying the hardware...problem solved.

 

Of course, that's not practical at ordinary level, but when you get to the big events with big money sponsors...well...why not.

 

Either that or just let anything go. But for me ...I prefer racing where the human skill factor is important, not the budget of the vehicle builder.