Is the hobby dying off?

[turok007]

parents have enough for the latest phone every few months.  and that is way over £200 a time.

[XV Pilot]

2 hours ago, Alex97 said:

Not being funny  but some parents don't have £200 to spend getting their kid set up with RC stuff or won't because they know that they might stop playing with it after a week or two.. 

 

True - however many seem happy to afford a £50 toy-grade one from Argos, when that same money could have bought a quite respectable 2nd hand hobby-grade setup from any number of sources (eBay, Gumtree, forum classifieds, RC clubs, even some hobby shops).

Edited May 23, 2017 by XV Pilot

[Alex97]

1 hour ago, Si Coe said:

Thats not strictly true. Parents that claim they can't afford school shoes seem to be remarkably good at buying hoverboards, the latest iPhone, limited edition trainers etc. It seems its possible to 'find' the money IF the parents themselves think the item is kinda cool too.

This is exactly what happened around '87-90 when entry level RC cost £200 once you'd included the radio, batteries etc - no RTR back then. £200 in late 80's money I might add, so somewhat more adjusted for inflation. Legions of dads got Tamiya kits to build with their sons despite the cost, some were used lots, others lay in a cupboard after a few uses. The key there though was that Dad wanted it as much as the kid did - not something many modern parents are that into. 

The angle I was coming from is what they won't spend that on a toy car that the kid might grow out of or lose interest within a week. Knowledge is also a key issue, if you look at most of the shops "combo deals" it's filled with rubbish, parents will take the advice of the shops as they don't know otherwise. There are familys out there that can't afford them but still have all the lastest things and live off the state, another discussion for another day.

 

I'm not defending them at all or trying to start an argument with you I'm just saying what I see. This is todays reality sadly.

 

[Alex97]

17 minutes ago, XV Pilot said:

 

True - however many seem happy to afford a £50 toy-grade one from Argos, when that same money could have bought a quite respectable 2nd hand hobby-grade setup from any number of sources (eBay, Gumtree, forum classifieds, RC club's, even some hobby shops).

Lack of knowledge is the issue here.

[Si Coe]

37 minutes ago, XV Pilot said:

 

True - however many seem happy to afford a £50 toy-grade one from Argos, when that same money could have bought a quite respectable 2nd hand hobby-grade setup from any number of sources (eBay, Gumtree, forum classifieds, RC club's, even some hobby shops).

 

The problem there is that if you don't know much about the thing you are buying 2nd hand is a minefield. I've seen the same thing with bikes where people would rather buy a new thing that looks like a mountain bike but falls apart the moment you take it offroad rather than a used quality bike a few years old. 

There is good (if flawed) logic behind that - a new item ought to work, whereas a used one might have been hammered to the point of destruction. Experienced users know the signs to look out for, and that toy grade stuff really isn't that good but outsiders don't and shouldn't be expected too. 

[XV Pilot]

41 minutes ago, Si Coe said:

Experienced users know the signs to look out for, and that toy grade stuff really isn't that good but outsiders don't and shouldn't be expected to. 

 

Not sure I agree with the last bit. The info is out there. In fact, a lot of it is right here. I think it is quite reasonable to expect people to do a bit of research before buying, especially newcomers. And in this online age, it is easier than ever for them to do so.

[johninderby]

Acquiring knowledge costs. I think everyone in the hobby has made some poor purchases when starting out and wishes they'd had the knowedge they now have back then. Part of the problem nowdays of course is many don't have a decent local shop to buy from so buy online and to the beginner a toy grade looks much like a hobby grade. Of course if they'd joined MSUK first and asked advice before buying..

 

On the subject of bikes I do wish the various retailers would stop sending me offers on the latest bikes.  My 2016 model is just fine thanks and will do me for the next few years.  

 

            John

[Fly In My Soup]

17 hours ago, babylon said:

Even tho it was less accessible and much more expensive back in the day, As well as the usual Tamiya, Kyosho, Schumacher, You still had your Mugen, Serpent, AYK, PB, Hirobo, Yokomo, Associated, Tomy , Mardave, Yes some have gone to the wall, But that probably happens everyday in different hobbies we pay no interest in, Someone somewhere may be asking the same question about surfing or kite flying.  

 

 

I personally don't see it dying out, as babylon commented, I think there's just a shift taking place in the hobby, same as ALL products not hobby related, over the last few years.

 

As the east (mainly china) had its industrial revolution, production of parts/products has increased many times over, at first most believed that this would benefit the marketplace, but in the long run its just harming the hobby.

 

As where finding out,  hobby companies based over in europe are closing, so are local retail hobby shops, this is because they now cannot compete with the prices the eastern suppliers can manufacture/retail at ( this is due to cheaper labour,manufacturing costs,less tax paid by eastern companies on sales)

 

This issue has been heightened by the recent improvements in eastern logistics, meaning they can now get products to your door as fast and cheaper than rivals.

 

I bet if you asked a current hobby shop how many products the stock originated in china, the answer would be 80-90%, as opposed to many years back the percentage of the easts market share in the hobby was significantly less.

 

Unfortunately I can't see a reverse of this shift, as the east now own to big of a marketshare to be competed with, instead you will see a rise in more niche higher end rc being manufactured in Europe/u.s as that's the only way they'll survive, especially as the racing scene is busier than ever as RM pointed out, you only have to look at European rc success stories to gauge this FG, Lauterbacher, contrast, harm etc etc

 

I think another final death knell for some rc companies will be when eastern manufacturing processes improve, thus improving component quality but still saled at a 'cheap' price

 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Fly In My Soup

[dazp1976]

20 hours ago, johninderby said:

Acquiring knowledge costs. I think everyone in the hobby has made some poor purchases when starting out and wishes they'd had the knowedge they now have back then. Part of the problem nowdays of course is many don't have a decent local shop to buy from so buy online and to the beginner a toy grade looks much like a hobby grade. Of course if they'd joined MSUK first and asked advice before buying..

 

On the subject of bikes I do wish the various retailers would stop sending me offers on the latest bikes.  My 2016 model is just fine thanks and will do me for the next few years.  

 

            John

My Carrera Vengeance from Halfords is pretty solid

[m4inbrain]

I actually think that there's a misconception here. 

 

One doesn't start into a hobby immediately with hobbygrade stuff. You can see that in other categories better, drones for example. Or helicopters. Even entry level hobbygrade stuff is quite expensive if you don't build it yourself in case of a drone (you can get away cheapish on a 250 race drone if you build it yourself from scratch). I didn't start with a 450 size helicopter, i started with a little crappy toy helicopter and worked me way up. Same with drones, got a toy grade one, then went from there.

 

There certainly is the reasoning that people like driving the RC, but they don't like wrenching on it. Which i personally think is actually understandable. With "hobby grade level" of RC, you actually HAVE to get some basic engineering knowledge. How gearing works, how to fix something, how things work.

 

Toygrade is fine, if done right. To me toygrade means either A it doesn't break, or B it's cheap enough that if it does break, you get a new one. You could get plenty of new people into the hobby if all they'd need to do is take their favourite RC, charge them (without having to get a diploma in how to chose the right charger/lipo) at the mains plug, thrash them and then just put them away again. So, if the hobby is on the decline (which i agree it is), then it's at least partially on manufacturers not going with the times.

[Si Coe]

But that almost exists already with some of the better RTR's. The battery/charging part isn't quite there yet, but that is done on purpose so we can use standard interchangeable batteries and chargers. What you propose would involve a more proprietary battery system which loses some flexibility. That might gain you some customers, but it could also lose you others. 

 

However with hobbygrade performance you inevitably hit the problem that things will break if you hit hard. Even the toughest models aren't invincible. The only solution is to reduce the performance but its that that sells......

 

Toygrade stuff definitely has a place. My kids have access to my array of hobby grade RC's, but they actually prefer their (admittedly high end) toy grade Carrera Mario Karts. They just suit them more. 

[m4inbrain]

They're not mutually exclusive. 

 

The battery part actually was solved a long time ago (ish), it certainly was when i was young with NIMH stick packs. It just recently (ish) went downhill a lot with the introduction of LiPo, which is bound to completely overwhelm someone trying to get into the hobby. I know, because i recently went through it. To the point where multiple times i thought "you know what, fk it, not worth the effort". 

 

Traxxas of all "people" is actually going the right direction with their ID chargers and supplied connector/batteries. You can get a vehicle, you can get a battery, you can get a charger and for the most part, it's fire and forget. They only got two things wrong on that one: reliability and price. It's way overpriced for what it is, and by that i mean everything from battery to charger to the RC itself. Of course even the toughest vehicle will break eventually. Some break just by using them "normal" though. If you go 149mp/h into a sidewalk, obviously it gets vaporised - but RCs for example also shed diffs, spurs, pinions, etc. And some of them do it really quickly. That's stuff that just can't happen with people who're not willing to invest most of their spare time to their RCs. That's the whole reason why i sold my Nitros, because i just can't be bothered to sit in the garage for hour after hour trying to do "after run maintenance", tuning and whatnot. 

 

The "some of the better RTRs" are the problem though. "Some of the better RTRs" go for ridiculous money. And i mean, ridiculous. RCs are nowhere near worth what they get charged for, and that's from someone who spent thousands as most of us did. For a decent "entry level price" you get mostly dogs apart from a few decent ones, like a Firestorm for example. Which isn't exactly a looker either, i personally wouldn't own one. I'm not saying i could do it better if i wanted to, but i certainly can say that the RC manufacturers screwed themselves with pricing and inability to find some sort of "micro usb solution", in the sense that you can connect everything to everything, at least on the entry/base level.

[Si Coe]

In real world terms even things like a Firestorm aren't that expensive. My first RC was a Tamiya Falcon in 1988. That cost £70 for the kit, another £50 for the radio, £20 for the battery and a tenner for the overnight wall charger - so £150 all in at 1988 prices. Given inflation that's got to be £250 today at least - and remember the Falcon had a silver can motor, mechanical speed controller and was self assembly.

 

The difference is that today thanks to cheap Chinese manufacturing there are a lot of other things you could also get for that money (hoverboards, mini motobikes, drones etc) that potential customers buy instead. RC hasn't gotten expensive, other things have become cheaper.....

[johninderby]

I thinkk you have to differentiate between rubbish toy grade and usable toy grade. There are cheap toy grade that are actually very usable right out of the box but unfortunately there is a lot of horrible junk around as well.

I've noticed a lot of new members on here lately so there is still a fair amount of interest around.

 

           John

[bertberr]

2 hours ago, Si Coe said:

In real world terms even things like a Firestorm aren't that expensive. My first RC was a Tamiya Falcon in 1988. That cost £70 for the kit, another £50 for the radio, £20 for the battery and a tenner for the overnight wall charger - so £150 all in at 1988 prices. Given inflation that's got to be £250 today at least - and remember the Falcon had a silver can motor, mechanical speed controller and was self assembly.

 

You're way off there, as I worked out what my Hornet & Ko Propo radio, batteries etc etc cost in 1986/7 ish, and it was frightening...

 

£150 in 1988, inflation adjusted, is easily over 350 quid today...

[m4inbrain]

4 hours ago, Si Coe said:

In real world terms even things like a Firestorm aren't that expensive. My first RC was a Tamiya Falcon in 1988. That cost £70 for the kit, another £50 for the radio, £20 for the battery and a tenner for the overnight wall charger - so £150 all in at 1988 prices. Given inflation that's got to be £250 today at least - and remember the Falcon had a silver can motor, mechanical speed controller and was self assembly.

 

The difference is that today thanks to cheap Chinese manufacturing there are a lot of other things you could also get for that money (hoverboards, mini motobikes, drones etc) that potential customers buy instead. RC hasn't gotten expensive, other things have become cheaper.....

 

That's assuming that the manufacturing cost didn't go down, which obviously isn't the case. If a car today is the same price as a car back then, it's considerably more expensive in relation. As you rightfully point out: other things have become cheaper - RC hasn't for the most part, even though it should've.

[Fly In My Soup]

4 hours ago, Si Coe said:

so £150 all in at 1988 prices. Given inflation that's got to be £250 today at least

 

Its actually more than you'd think, thank inflation for that!

 

I also tried it at £190- came to a whopping £491

[b19jas]

On 2017-5-23 at 16:28, babylon said:

You have to remember that this hobby is older than your many years, I've been doing it for over 30, And it was much much more niche back then, It's never been as accessible as it is now, What you see as dying off, I may see as going back to normal.

 Even tho it was less accessible and much more expensive back in the day, As well as the usual Tamiya, Kyosho, Schumacher, You still had your Mugen, Serpent, AYK, PB, Hirobo, Yokomo, Associated, Tomy , Mardave, Yes some have gone to the wall, But that probably happens everyday in different hobbies we pay no interest in, Someone somewhere may be asking the same question about surfing or kite flying.  

When I first started rc tamiya was about all you could get hobby grade...  certainly around us anyway. I remember the oruginal grasshopper on the shelf at budd morgan in cardiff. That was silly money back then in relation. Where as I agree that it's defo more accessible now mainly due to the power of the interweb, the price relevance still applies  

[Ross9999992]

I've only ever bought one (£100+) RC new and even that was off the back of a tax rebate.

 

Ain't none of us lower class scummers got £400+ to spunk on brand new RC's on a whim.

 

 

[Si Coe]

5 hours ago, m4inbrain said:

 

That's assuming that the manufacturing cost didn't go down, which obviously isn't the case. If a car today is the same price as a car back then, it's considerably more expensive in relation. As you rightfully point out: other things have become cheaper - RC hasn't for the most part, even though it should've.

 

It still has though, because what you get for that money has improved so much. My Falcon had a silver can 540 and a wiper style mechanical speed controller - my Acoms radio wasn't even BEC at first - I needed a reciever pack. The battery pack was a 1200mAh Nicad and the charger an unregulated trickle charger. Even if I wasn't way off with my inflation estimate (which I clearly was) a £250 RTR today would have an esc, quite possibly a brushless motor, much better batteries and a proper peak detecting charger. 

 

To give you another example - The Associated RC10 and Schumacher CAT XLS Re-re's cost roughly the same today as they did when first released 25 years ago (both around £200) - which given inflation makes them way cheaper now than then. 

[Fly In My Soup]

1 hour ago, Si Coe said:

To give you another example - The Associated RC10 and Schumacher CAT XLS Re-re's cost roughly the same today as they did when first released 25 years ago (both around £200) - which given inflation makes them way cheaper now than then. 

 

Valid point indeed sicoe, which kind of brings us full circle;

 

How do they make them cheaper nowadays, they source parts/labour externally, usually from the east.

 

My personal opinion is this only harm the hobby (in Europe at least) in standards of quality for sure.

 

But i suppose the more i think about it, im assuming (due to its relatively lower cost ) its easier to enter the hobby of rc in general now in SOME way thanks to eastern companies producing these cheaper rc's, which are affordable for all.

 

Apologies to norcoforever as i am straying off topic....It is relevant though as taking into account all points raised in this thread ,including my own, i believe the rc hobby is stronger than ever.

 

Surely the sales figures of rc companies products ( plus the sheer number of companies that are out there) would imply huge growth in the hobby??

 

[bombercountynick]

Who really cares? Just go out and enjoy your damn models 

[Fly In My Soup]

14 minutes ago, bombercountynick said:

Who really cares? Just go out and enjoy your damn models 

 

I do, partly because i have a son who's just making his way into the hobby.

 

Secondly I trade rc, so this topic is relevant for me also

 

17 minutes ago, bombercountynick said:

 

Who really cares? Just go out and enjoy your damn models 

 

 

 

[mydoddy69]

I don't think it's the hobby as much as it is the forums and that's due to social media. Granted though the basher scene does seem to be a little quiet compared to recent years. With all the trouble this forum had with updating it lost a lot of interest IMO 

[bombercountynick]

Forums are dying. I remember when I passed my driving test got my first few cars, on the 106 rallye forum, integra type r forum.....they were heaving ! I go back on 3/4 years later and they're absolutely dead, everything is shared/sold on Facebook 

Edited June 1, 2017 by bombercountynick