ninjagaiden Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 If they arrive in time I'll bring you one of the Castle 2028 size blowers to the MRC meet. Should fit round the heatsink of the stock 980kv motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjagaiden Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Checked the manual last night. Stock 980kv motor rated at 88A max and is a 4488 can. Assuming this is at 6s then the power rating is just under 2KW. The 1717 is over the double the rating, whereas your 4074 1400kv is a more matched 2.5KW. 4.5Kw at 6s = big current = massive i2r losses = HEAT! longer rotor for given kv = more torque but more current = HEAT! I was also looking at the Tekin TT2364 1350KV motor which is about 140quid on MSUK. It is very similar dimension wise to the Leopard 4074 (it would be a 4077). You can run it sensored or sensorless and a guy called bobi posted about fitting one in an XBE on the rampage forum. Bundles for a TT2364 and the Tekin RX8 are very reasonable from the US. Waiting for our friend from Basel to feed back more about about stability on his 1717... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spriggan Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 If they arrive in time I'll bring you one of the Castle 2028 size blowers to the MRC meet. Should fit round the heatsink of the stock 980kv motor. Yeah that would be great, I'll have one of them off you. Which ever I have fitted for the next race, it will need a bit of additional cooling, Good bit of research there with the motors, I reckon that for our track a motor with just a bit more grunt and RPM would be ideal. But I do wonder if its better to have a motor that can run at 8S and run it on 6S, or have at motor built to run at 6S and run it at full power. Which is better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjagaiden Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 From Kershaw designs web site, take the Leopard 5692 1090kv as an example, and consider running it at 6,8 and 10s Run at 6S, max current = 117A, power = 2.6KW Run at 8S, max current = 131A, power = 3.9KW Run at 10S, max current = 145A, power = 5.4KW This is, at 6S, will a 1090kv motor give you enough rpm for good top end speed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjagaiden Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Sprig I've decided I am going to get the 4074 1400kv. It seems like a good match with the stock motor with 80A and 2.6W rating. It's a Y wound (not sure what this means but people say they are better than D wound), and an Ally can. 5mm shaft, standard M3 mounting holes means it should drop in easily. Web site called performancemodels.co.uk has them for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spriggan Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) Sprig I've decided I am going to get the 4074 1400kv. It seems like a good match with the stock motor with 80A and 2.6W rating. It's a Y wound (not sure what this means but people say they are better than D wound), and an Ally can. 5mm shaft, standard M3 mounting holes means it should drop in easily. Web site called performancemodels.co.uk has them for Edited June 29, 2012 by Spriggan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjagaiden Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Yeah the 64.04 Ebay guy is actually shipping from China if you look closely, even though he says he's from Bristol. Performancemodels don't include shipping making it nearer 75 quid to buy from the UK, so I'm going to vote with my wallet like you suggest and go for the 51.90 from HK. Will have to order whilst I am in Cornwall so it arrives when I get back. I'm now thinking about how bendy the Castle 2028 size blower is - the dual fans should provide better cooling than the 2200 size blower, and might even push some air round the end of the can which does seem to get hot. I'm also thinking that if I like the 4074/1400 as a motor for better top end, I could also order a 4274 1050kv for when I want more torque and happy to limit the top end current. At these prices why settle for one motor when you can have two? N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spriggan Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 Oh for Pity sake, I missed that bit! Looks like I'll be running the stock motor for the next race then. Might drill some vent hols in the end plate to allow a bit of extra cooling air in there in hopes of keeping it going through the day with out burning it out. I've been trying to track down any alternative gearing that would fit as we are going to need lower gearing for the faster motors. Robinson Racing do a 8 & 9T 1.5mod pinion on a 8mm shaft but not on the 5mm shaft. There is a good range of Mod 1 pinions available, but then the prob is to find a Mod 1 spur gear that can mount on the machined spool shaft of the Vader, Who was it said that this electric stuff was easy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjagaiden Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Why don't you ask Ol'Fart on 7075RC? He's got 44T and 48T Mod 1.5 Spur gears on his site, but I am not sure if you need to buy his motor mount to use them, or if they will fit in the stock one. I can imagine you would not be the only person who would like some Mod 1 spur gears if he did decide to make a run of them. Lots of choice then on pinions. Cheaper than buying your own CNC machine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spriggan Posted June 30, 2012 Author Share Posted June 30, 2012 The 7075 spurs are Delron, so not sure how they would stand up to the steel pinion, even if you get the 10-48 combo the alloy pinion the gearing may still be a bit high for the higher RPM motors. The 9T pinion would be a big bonus to get the gearing down. I think from what has been said in the past on the Rampage forum the 48 T is a bit tight on the stock mounts, but then there is always a drimell! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spriggan Posted July 2, 2012 Author Share Posted July 2, 2012 (edited) Still racking my brains trying to sort out some different gearing for the Vader. Been playing around with the numbers and think I have worked something out, what do you think? The stock Motor is 980kv so @ 22v runs at about 21,560rpm A replacement 1600kv motor @ 22v runs at about 35,000rpm and a 2000kv motor @22v runs at about 44,000rpm, so needs some serious gearing down. The stock 1.5mod gearing's are 10-41 & 11-41 which is a ratio of 4.1: 1, & 3.7: 1. Which delivers a center drive shaft rotation speed of: 5258-5827rpm with the stock motor, 8536-9459rpm with a 1600kv motor or 10731-11891rpm with a 2000kv motor which is far to fast, the motor will never cope! Problem is there doesn't seem to be anything smaller than a 10T pinion easily available in the 1.5 mod range for a 5mm shaft. I reckon the ideal max rotation speed for the center shaft for track racing is going to be around 7000rpm, as thats about 20% faster than stock. To get that I rockon we need to change to mod1 gearing where there is a greater range of gears available. Mod 1 pinions are standard stock items with 5mm shafts and mod1 steel spur gears are available that can be modded on a lath to fit the Vader's center spool. We can then get much lower gear ratios. 11t pinion to a 70t spur gives about 5500rpm on the 1600kv and 6920rpm on the 2000kv motors 11t pinion to a 65t spur gives about 5930rpm on the 1600kv and 7460rpm on the 2000kv motors 12t pinion to a 65t spur gives about 6470rpm on the 1600kv and 8130rpm on the 2000kv motors 13t pinion to a 65t spur gives about 7000rpm on the 1600kv and 8800rpm on the 2000kv motors The lower shaft speeds might be useful if fitting larger diameter wheels, but with the 65t spur gear it seems to give a usable rpm range with a choice of standard pinions. That is assuming all my maths is right!!!!! With the spur gears costing about Edited July 2, 2012 by Spriggan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjagaiden Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 You're absolutely right! Annoys me why more people in the community (esp in states) have not been asking for Mod 1 pinions. Works well in fully loaded 1/8th Monster trucks and the Vader is not much heavier. I am hoping that the 1400kv Leopard 4074 will hit the 7000rpm sweet spot with the stock gearing. I got the 2028 size Castle blowers in today from the states. Look really nice with the twin fans. I will bring yours to the MRC meet. I was hoping it might fit round the stock heatsink but there's not enough clearance round the motor. Will go round your 1717 nicely though! N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_scot_nanny Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Spriggan, I've been away, sorry for missing all the posting. An interesting conundrum indeed! I have also found that there is rather too much speed on tap, I have a crappy controller though, so not throttle mapping available. I did wonder about a 48T spur, that might be a good way to go. Excellent analysis BTW! But, if I am careful with the throttle it is an incredible piece of kit. Wonderful oomph that really pushes me past the other boys and girls. Sorry to hear you are not happy with it, but at least you are not melting any more connectors? What tires are you using, and what kind of surface? Kev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spriggan Posted July 5, 2012 Author Share Posted July 5, 2012 Just fitted my Futaba 3PM MX radio gear to the Vader and set it up on the bench with an intriguing result. Where the stock controller seems to be getting full speed out of the motor at about 80% on the Duel rate knob and then nothing extra for the rest of the travel, the Futaba seems to found an an extra bit of speed hidden in there! The stock motor does sound faster and it is certainly ballooning the Hormann tires out more, which is normally a sign of extra rotational speed! Now looking forward to testing it out. Fitted the Vaders stock radio gear to the FXT Punisher, which is where the Futaba gear has been sitting unused for the last 6 months, and well, if the way the Punisher controls are responding to the Mavrick radio gear is anything to go on, the Vader should be a whole lot easier to handle with all the fine tuning that can be done with the Futaba radio gear. But then I guess thats the difference between a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjagaiden Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Guys, Just ordered my new motor on Fleabay. In the end I went with the Leopard 4082 1600kv 4 pole for about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spriggan Posted July 6, 2012 Author Share Posted July 6, 2012 J. If It is not good for the Vader I can always put it into one of my 1:8th cars. That just what I am thing about the 4074 that has just arrived. It does look a bit small for the Vader. The other thing is that it has 6 mounting hols so they wont line up with the 4 holes in the mount, so its either going to have to run on 2 bolts or it needs a different mount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spriggan Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 Where do I go from here? The new Leopard Motor lasted all of 2 minutes before seizing up. Refitted the stock motor on the new 11T pinion, that lasted 5 minutes and 3 teeth broke off the pinion, then the motor lasted another 4 minutes on the 10T pinion before seizing. Fitted the Sirius, for the final, went out ran it slowly for two laps, just to get some points on the board, brought it in and checked the motor temp and it was fine, so went out again and ran another couple of slow laps and my darling daughter who was visiting parked my Punisher on top of the Vader, putting it head on into a barrier breaking a front drive cup! All in all a second bad days racing with the Vader. Stuffed Two motors, One pinion and a Drive cup. Starting to think the Vader just isnt up to racing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jony nitro Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Ah just give up? ESC mate more amps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tug Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Where do I go from here? The new Leopard Motor lasted all of 2 minutes before seizing up. Refitted the stock motor on the new 11T pinion, that lasted 5 minutes and 3 teeth broke off the pinion, then the motor lasted another 4 minutes on the 10T pinion before seizing. Fitted the Sirius, for the final, went out ran it slowly for two laps, just to get some points on the board, brought it in and checked the motor temp and it was fine, so went out again and ran another couple of slow laps and my darling daughter who was visiting parked my Punisher on top of the Vader, putting it head on into a barrier breaking a front drive cup! All in all a second bad days racing with the Vader. Stuffed Two motors, One pinion and a Drive cup. Starting to think the Vader just isnt up to racing! You're either incredibly unlucky or way over/under-geared. Am I right to assume the seized motors were red hot at the time they seized? But the ESC survived? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spriggan Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 Unlucky seems to be middle name at the moment, Yes the leopard wanted to be on a 9T as it was a 1400kv but you just cant get a 9t at 1.5 mod, so my intenshion was to get a couple of 1mod spurs and machine it down to suit the Vaders center spool, and pair them up with new mod 1 pinions to give ratios for the 1400, & 2000kv motors . The ESC was fine, I even changed it to try the HW Blue to see if that made any difference, but no difference, the motors still go up in smoke in minutes on the track. What I dont get is, yes track racing is hard on the cars being pushed hard, but if you go bashing in a park or field the odds are the grass will be longer making the motor work harder to push the car around and the cars get beaten around the large area at full throttle, where as on the track you are barely at full power for more than a second or two before lifting off or the next corner, yes you have to dab the breaks two or three times during a lap, but most of the time you are running at varying throttle setting and speeds. So why do the motors keep burning out? That 3 so far! 2 stocks on stock gearing and the leopard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tug Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Unlucky seems to be middle name at the moment, Yes the leopard wanted to be on a 9T as it was a 1400kv but you just cant get a 9t at 1.5 mod, so my intenshion was to get a couple of 1mod spurs and machine it down to suit the Vaders center spool, and pair them up with new mod 1 pinions to give ratios for the 1400, & 2000kv motors . The ESC was fine, I even changed it to try the HW Blue to see if that made any difference, but no difference, the motors still go up in smoke in minutes on the track. What I dont get is, yes track racing is hard on the cars being pushed hard, but if you go bashing in a park or field the odds are the grass will be longer making the motor work harder to push the car around and the cars get beaten around the large area at full throttle, where as on the track you are barely at full power for more than a second or two before lifting off or the next corner, yes you have to dab the breaks two or three times during a lap, but most of the time you are running at varying throttle setting and speeds. So why do the motors keep burning out? That 3 so far! 2 stocks on stock gearing and the leopard. I hear ya, but here's the thing; full throttle is pulling less amps through the ESC and therefore generating less heat. So full throttle across a field will be less stressful than on off throttle inputs used in racing. There's a section on castles site that will explain in clear detail for you. Hope this makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjagaiden Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I was fortunate enouh to see Spriggan's travk. mixture of low and high grip surfaces and no.long grass because he strimmed it all before the racing. it is twisty and I am sure there would be much more braking input than you would use when bashing. I am worried my Leopard 4082 will have the same problems when it arrives. @spriggan : are you using 100% brake? I suspect you'll need to go to an 8s system for racing. I have heard the XL2 can be set to apply torque and current limits which will be invaluable for stqbility when racing. N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spriggan Posted July 12, 2012 Author Share Posted July 12, 2012 Hi Guys, Nothing is going right for me at the moment, Just got home after spending 2 days preparing the ground at a local rally where the club was due to take part in a 3 day show this weekend, the bloody site has flooded this morning, so the show has been called off.... Unlucky strikes again! I had considered upping the voltage to 8S, but that would mean laying out on another 6 or 8 battery packs as well as another ESC to handle them, but on limited income, I just cant warrant the expense without guaranteed results when I have a perfectly good Petrol 1/5 that now all the work has been done on it costs a couple of quid a week to run, just sitting there. I'm going back to racing that for a while and think about what to do with the Vader. It was good to see you down the track Ninja, Only sorry I didnt have more time to chat, but everything was going tits up on Sunday. No my braking is only set a 25% with 0% drag and there are only 3 corners you have to dab the brakes for, the rest you run the car around. So I really cant see that would have caused too much of a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tug Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I think you need to consider getting a 2028 sized can, you're basically running 1/8 motors in a 1/5, this can be the only reason for continued motor failures. What about a Sirius? Would it fit the Vader? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spriggan Posted July 12, 2012 Author Share Posted July 12, 2012 I think you need to consider getting a 2028 sized can, you're basically running 1/8 motors in a 1/5, this can be the only reason for continued motor failures. What about a Sirius? Would it fit the Vader? The Vader would be hard pushed to take the size of the 2028, even with the upgrade center diff mounts. The Vader wasnt built for such a big motor, the stock motor is a 82amp 2500w (approx) with a 2028 you would be putting in 4+ times the horsepower, I really cant see the car will take it. The drive train barely copes with the stock power without breaking. I have the Sirius 1717 and yes great motor, but it turned the 5000 c35 batts to bloated lumps of putty, it even heated the 4.8 Nano Techs to way above normal levels, and shortened the battery life so much that I couldn't even finish a race. But it all seemed fine just poodleing around at half speed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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