jamham Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Hi folks, Came across this forum from an internet search looking for some help getting my old Tamiya model going again. She's from approx. 1993, bought as a Christmas present as a 4wd Escort Cossie kit. Later got the MB 190 body as I became a bit of a Merc fan boy. But digressing now. Car has had 100s of hours use, was my favourite thing and I have a big box of spares from all the repairs I used to carry out. The car has had a 20 year hibernation but is in great shape actually considering all the use so I bought a new big capacity battery pack, did some cleaning and checking and went for a blast, she flies. Or flew for about 5 mins, then there was some crackling around the MSC. Yellow wire which looks to have been previously soldered by yours truly not making proper contact and coming away. Reading about new fangled ESCs got me thinking should I just get one of these instead of shelling out for and messing around with a soldering kit. Would something like this work? The ad mentions that it needs to be a high turn motor. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tamiya-45057-TBLE-02S-Brushed-Brushless-ESC-Replaces-TEU105BK-TEU101BK/360827647623?epid=14003309372&hash=item540300f687:g:eu8AAOxyNo9SxVs- If it will work, does anyone have a pic of where it should be mounted or how it should be attached in the car. Not after complete originality, just want to have some fun with the car again. Apologies if this topic has been done to death. Look forward to getting involved in the hobby again and hopefully getting a modern car as well. Thanks, James 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly In My Soup Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Hello jamham, and welcome!! Nice rc! I do love a vintage model! That ESC you linked will work well, even with your current brushed motor. Simply plug and play! You can mount it anywhere that's out of harms way, preferably where the old MSC was mounted. Keep us updated with progress, theirs a fair few tamiya fans on here that would love to see this running!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamham Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 18 minutes ago, Fly In My Soup said: Hello jamham, and welcome!! Nice rc! I do love a vintage model! That ESC you linked will work well, even with your current brushed motor. Simply plug and play! You can mount it anywhere that's out of harms way, preferably where the old MSC was mounted. Keep us updated with progress, theirs a fair few tamiya fans on here that would love to see this running!! Thanks Fly In My Soup for the speedy reply, this is just the info I needed. ESC ordered and looking forward to resurrecting the beast. I'd forgotten how satisfying these models are to work on, going to have a lot of fun with this. Will post an update when she is back up and running. We have just moved house which is what prompted the parents to force me to take lots of boxes of childhood things, glad I did now. Lots of interesting terrain in and around our new place too so should be good territory for running the car. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly In My Soup Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Happy to help! If you have any queries just ask, loads of helpful bods on here! If you have anything tamiya specific then ask @XV Pilot (tamiya guru!) 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XV Pilot Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 1 hour ago, jamham said: I see you are running a non-original motor there. How many turns does it have? Worth checking, as the TBLE-02 is only rated down to 25 turns in brushed mode. Anything less than that and you risk thermal overload. As for mounting the ESC, I like to remove the MSC, MSC mount, MSC servo and the resistor. This gives a nice clear deck to which you can mount the ESC with double sided tape. Here is a pic of an ESC fitted to my FF-01, which uses the same arrangement as your car: The ESC in the photo is a TEU-101BK, but the same logic applies whichever ESC you choose. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly In My Soup Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) On 21/02/2018 at 11:42, XV Pilot said: see you are running a non-original motor there. How many turns does it have? It's a Tomoko pro stock, I think they came in 15, 17, 25, 27 turn The most common was the 15 and 27 P.s. apologies if I misinformed you jamham! Just seen this on another site, poster was answering this very question ....... Problem with turns limit, is that one 20T motor can draw a lot more current than another 20T motor. Depending on magnets used, timing advance, number of wires, single, double, triple.So while it can be used as general guideline. It doesn't mean that if you replace a 25T motor when running that Tamiya ESC, by a 24T, that the ESC will blow for sure. It's not a hard limit. Also, it depends much on gearing, how much current a motor will demand. An overgeared 25T runs a bigger chance on burning that ESC, than a perfectly geared 23T.What it means is that you can't just swap in any motor, and expect it to be ok, there is a limit to what the ESC can handle. The TBLE-02S is rated for 60A continuous current according to this link: https://www.tamiyausa.com/items/radi...rushless-45057I can run a 15T triple on an ESC rated for 45A cont current. So why Tamiya gives 25T as lowest it can go, is beyond me, even the stall current of a 24T motor may well be lower than 60A, and that is just a short moment.Just keep an eye on the temps, gear down a little maybe, when making the first runs, and just loosely take note of that 25T limit. Unless Tamiya has lied big time about the specs, and it's really 10A or so... In that case I would ditch the Tamiya ESC, and get a 10-15 dollar one that has true 45A rating, and run that 22T motor with ease. Edited February 21, 2018 by Fly In My Soup 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XV Pilot Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) Just bear in mind that the 60A rating is in brushless mode, where the TBLE-02 is capable of going down to 10.5t. With the motor pictured, the ESC would need to run in brushed mode. When in brushed mode, the ESC is only using 1/3 of its FETs and cannot handle a full 60A. Closer to 20A would be more accurate, hence the 25t limit in brushed mode. (Yes you can push the limit - Tamiya tend to underrate their ESCs, which I find refreshing in this age of exaggerated claims from many other manufacturers. However 15t is perhaps a push too far...) Edited February 21, 2018 by XV Pilot 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly In My Soup Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Got ya xv I just searched Google for "use tamiya ESC on low turn motor" Few results down, titled "truth about tamiya ESC.....etc etc", from RCU was a good read Many people quoting using all sorts of turn motors, but they did state amp draw was a big factor etc..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamham Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 54 minutes ago, XV Pilot said: Just bear in mind that the 60A rating is in brushless mode, where the TBLE-02 is capable of going down to 10.5t. With the motor pictured, the ESC would need to run in brushed mode. When in brushed mode, the ESC is only using 1/3 of its FETs and cannot handle a full 60A. Closer to 20A would be more accurate, hence the 25t limit in brushed mode. (Yes you can push the limit - Tamiya tend to underrate their ESCs, which I find refreshing in this age of exaggerated claims from many other manufacturers. However 15t is perhaps a push too far...) Thanks chaps for the additional pointers and well spotted on the non original motor XV Pilot, I bought this for the final 6 months the car was used as I think the original was getting a bit tired. Appreciate the photo of your ESC setup too, looks neat. I just unbolted to check the type of motor I have, attached a photo below. It seems to be a 23T. Is it worth giving a go with the Tamiya ESC controller I ordered to see if it's tolerable or just returning unopened and sourcing a different controller. Any specific products in mind if I should go for another? Thanks for all the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly In My Soup Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) Judging by your pinion size and that it's a 23t motor I think you'll be ok Let's ask the guru ..... @XV Pilot Edited February 21, 2018 by Fly In My Soup 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XV Pilot Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 The Pro Stock range are known as good performers, but with performance goes higher current draw and a short lifespan, at least where brushed motors are concerned. I'd be confident about running a weak and weedy sealed endbell 23t cheapie on a TBLE-02, but not a power hungry Yokomo. It might work if geared conservatively, but I wouldn't want to stake my reputation on it. You could select another ESC if you wanted to be sure, such as the Quikrun 1060 which can go all the way down to 12 turns and will easily handle the 23t Yokomo. However given the age of the motor, you might want to consider another approach: stick with the TBLE-02, and get a brushless motor to go with it. A brushless motor would be more efficient than your brushed one, giving you longer run times and/or better performance depending on your chosen turn count and gearing. And it would be virtually maintenance free, needing nothing more than a bit of oil every now and then. The TBLE-02 is quite happy with any 540 size sensored brushless motor of 10.5t or above, although if running close to the limit you might find a cooling fan necessary. I find the sweet spot to be around 13.5t, giving a good balance between performance and runtimes while leaving plenty of ESC headroom so that no fan is required even on tall gearing. Turnigy and Speed Passion motors are generally good value, not the cheapest, but cheaper than most while still featuring decent build quality. I use them in my brushless models, many of which also use the TBLE-02 ESC. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamham Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 31 minutes ago, XV Pilot said: The Pro Stock range are known as good performers, but with performance goes higher current draw and a short lifespan, at least where brushed motors are concerned. I'd be confident about running a weak and weedy sealed endbell 23t cheapie on a TBLE-02, but not a power hungry Yokomo. It might work if geared conservatively, but I wouldn't want to stake my reputation on it. You could select another ESC if you wanted to be sure, such as the Quikrun 1060 which can go all the way down to 12 turns and will easily handle the 23t Yokomo. However given the age of the motor, you might want to consider another approach: stick with the TBLE-02, and get a brushless motor to go with it. A brushless motor would be more efficient than your brushed one, giving you longer run times and/or better performance depending on your chosen turn count and gearing. And it would be virtually maintenance free, needing nothing more than a bit of oil every now and then. The TBLE-02 is quite happy with any 540 size sensored brushless motor of 10.5t or above, although if running close to the limit you might find a cooling fan necessary. I find the sweet spot to be around 13.5t, giving a good balance between performance and runtimes while leaving plenty of ESC headroom so that no fan is required even on tall gearing. Turnigy and Speed Passion motors are generally good value, not the cheapest, but cheaper than most while still featuring decent build quality. I use them in my brushless models, many of which also use the TBLE-02 ESC. Thanks XV Pilot, some good options there. I think I'll pick up a Quikrun 1060 and use that until my Yokomo wears out. At which point I can then get one of the recommended brushless motors to pair with my TBLE-02. Or maybe I should jump straight to brushless setup. Hmmmmm, will have a think. One thing that looks interesting on the brushless motors is they seem to have a brake function which the ESCs support, guessing this should work even with my old Techniplus controller. Does the brake work well with these older models in terms of drivetrain stress etc? I never really used to slam it in reverse from full forward speed unless necessary to avoid hitting anything. Likewise is the increased output from the brushless likely to toast the transmissions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XV Pilot Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Most modern ESCs (both brushed and brushless) have a brake function along with a delayed or double-pump reverse to stop the motor from being slammed into reverse while the car is still in motion, helping to protect the drivetrain. The performance of a brushless motor is dependent on its spec. A low turn brushless probably would shred the gearbox, but it ought to be fine with one in the 17.5t to 13.5t range with the basic upgrades. I take it you have fitted bearings and a steel pinion? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamham Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 13 minutes ago, XV Pilot said: I take it you have fitted bearings and a steel pinion? Starting to realise I'm really in the "don't know what I don't know" category with these cars! A quick search tells me the bearings set upgrade is the first thing you should do on these cars and I haven't done it. I guess the only info I had at the time was from my small town model shop in the mid-1990s hence just replacing worn out parts with like for like on this (gear attached to the motor was always shredding itself for example). So I will order a bearings set. Haven't taken this car apart for years so fitting them may be a bit hit and miss assuming no guide provided with the parts. Have you come across a web how-to on this upgrade? Struggling to find anything detailed on search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XV Pilot Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) Here are a few links that you might find useful: Manual: http://tamiyaweb.com/manuals/archive/58112.php Bearing set: https://www.rcbearings.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=54 Plastic gear set: https://www.modelsport.co.uk/index.php?product_id=2127 Steel pinion: https://www.modelsport.co.uk/rw-6-pinion-21-teeth/rc-car-products/13760 Alloy motor mount: http://www.fusionhobbies.com/product/ta1002-gpm-ta01-alloy-motor-mount-for-16t-21t/Blue Alloy propshaft: https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yeah-Racing-Alum-Modified-Main-Drive-shaft-TA01-134BU-/380695000181 Metal wheel hexes: https://www.modelsport.co.uk/tamiya-pin-type-wheel-adapters/rc-car-products/2074 Edited February 21, 2018 by XV Pilot 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XV Pilot Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 1 hour ago, jamham said: Have you come across a web how-to on this upgrade? Struggling to find anything detailed on search. The link to the manual should help with fitting the upgrades. It is simply a case of taking out the stock parts and putting the upgraded ones in their place. As for which upgrades to choose, I have posted links to some which you might want to consider. The bearings are an obvious one, reducing drivetrain friction thus improving performance and runtimes. The stock gearset features an alloy idler gear which is prone to wear. The all- plastic gearset has far better wear characteristics. The steel pinion lasts far longer than the stock alloy one, and is better for the spur gear. The alloy motor mount is stronger than the stock plastic one which is prone to cracking, and also acts as a bit of a heatsink for the motor. The alloy propshaft is stiffer and more reliable than the stock wire one, better suited to a more powerful motor. The metal wheel hexes are stronger and less prone to cracking in cold weather than the stock plastic items. Please give us a shout if you would like any other advice or if there are further questions. It is great to see an older model being updated, and we are happy to help wherever possible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamham Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 55 minutes ago, XV Pilot said: The link to the manual should help with fitting the upgrades. It is simply a case of taking out the stock parts and putting the upgraded ones in their place. As for which upgrades to choose, I have posted links to some which you might want to consider. The bearings are an obvious one, reducing drivetrain friction thus improving performance and runtimes. The stock gearset features an alloy idler gear which is prone to wear. The all- plastic gearset has far better wear characteristics. The steel pinion lasts far longer than the stock alloy one, and is better for the spur gear. The alloy motor mount is stronger than the stock plastic one which is prone to cracking, and also acts as a bit of a heatsink for the motor. The alloy propshaft is stiffer and more reliable than the stock wire one, better suited to a more powerful motor. The metal wheel hexes are stronger and less prone to cracking in cold weather than the stock plastic items. Please give us a shout if you would like any other advice or if there are further questions. It is great to see an older model being updated, and we are happy to help wherever possible. Thanks very much, those links are very useful indeed. Have saved the PDF manual for the car and bearings set is the first thing I will order. Appreciate all the advice to a newbie, hadn't expected such a useful mine of info here when I signed up this morning. I will keep the thread updated and very kind of the offer of help with further qs. It's going to be very pleasing indeed to work on, use and upgrade this car. It's amazing that the parts availability is good and reasonably priced and so many things are backwards compatible. Working on a rolling resto of an actual early 80s car as well the real beauty of these models also is no rust, tax or insurance 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XV Pilot Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Aye, one of the great joys of Tamiya is long term spares availability. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candyman Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 i really want to get a brush and clean your car 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamham Posted February 22, 2018 Author Share Posted February 22, 2018 6 minutes ago, Candyman said: i really want to get a brush and clean your car Ha! I really want you to Actually SWMBO offered to clean it up with some cotton buds and such like last night. We will see if this actually happens though.. It's going to need a clean up before I fit the bearings set which is en route anyway, don't want to be getting dirt and grit in the moving parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XV Pilot Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 This is probably a good opportunity to fully disassemble it and give all the individual parts a thorough inspection for wear and damage after cleaning them with soapy water and a soft brush. You might also want to soak them in Armor All or a similar dashboard spray which will feed the plastic and counteract the brittleness which sometimes comes with age. It'll also make them look nice and shiny. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamham Posted February 22, 2018 Author Share Posted February 22, 2018 6 hours ago, XV Pilot said: This is probably a good opportunity to fully disassemble it and give all the individual parts a thorough inspection for wear and damage after cleaning them with soapy water and a soft brush. You might also want to soak them in Armor All or a similar dashboard spray which will feed the plastic and counteract the brittleness which sometimes comes with age. It'll also make them look nice and shiny. Excellent, hopefully will come up nicely. Got the bearing set estimated arrival of start of next week and the Quikrun 1060 ESC middle of the week so might be able to go for a blast in a week's time. Then I can look at maybe getting some new wheels/tyres. The tyres are very flatspotted from storage although should be good for an hour or two of drifting action maybe! I have been looking at a slightly wider body shell (started another thread in vintage section on this) so on the lookout for some good looking offset wheels and probably some spacers to get to the 198mm I need to be at. Then I'll have 2 good bodyshells to alternate between. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamham Posted March 2, 2018 Author Share Posted March 2, 2018 (edited) So, quick update. Quicrun 1060 ESC arrived and this was the first thing I fitted. Very pleased, completely transforms the low speed manoeuvrability and control compared to the original MSC. Hardly any heat coming off it either after a good 10 min run which is great. The car absolutely flies and was very happy with the first run around, really fun. Not sure how much of it is that 23T motor I fitted during the later part of the 90s or how much is just not being used to RCs any more but was very impressed. Had another couple of runs, one in the ice yesterday and it was great to slide around and very controllable. Ordered some new wheels and tyres as the wheels have seen better days and the tyres are flat spotted. Accidentally got 2 instead of 4 so another order needed. Couple of mm bigger diameter than originals so better ground clearance. The bearings arrived so will fit those when I get chance. Now for the not so good news - let the other half have a quick go and she managed to plant it into a brick wall at almost full speed. There is a big crack across the bonnet of the car body shell and some smaller cracks in lower bumper of body shell. Argh. Anyway, fortunately managed to order another identical shell with all the sticker, albeit quite pricey. In terms of repairing the original, can anyone recommend any products? So will enjoy painting and assembling the new body when it arrives and have ordered some new mounting posts as I would like a bit higher ground clearance and originals are chopped to size. That's all for now! Edited March 2, 2018 by jamham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly In My Soup Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 21 minutes ago, jamham said: So, quick update. Quicrun 1060 ESC arrived and this was the first thing I fitted. Very pleased, completely transforms the low speed manoeuvrability and control compared to the original MSC. Hardly any heat coming off it either after a good 10 min run which is great. The car absolutely flies and was very happy with the first run around, really fun. Not sure how much of it is that 23T motor I fitted during the later part of the 90s or how much is just not being used to RCs any more but was very impressed. Had another couple of runs, one in the ice yesterday and it was great to slide around and very controllable. Ordered some new wheels and tyres as the wheels have seen better days and the tyres are flat spotted. Accidentally got 2 instead of 4 so another order needed. Couple of mm bigger diameter than originals so better ground clearance. The bearings arrived so will fit those when I get chance. Now for the not so good news - let the other half have a quick go and she managed to plant it into a brick wall at almost full speed. There is a big crack across the bonnet of the car body shell and some smaller cracks in lower bumper of body shell. Argh. Anyway, fortunately managed to order another identical shell with all the sticker, albeit quite pricey. In terms of repairing the original, can anyone recommend any products? So will enjoy painting and assembling the new body when it arrives and have ordered some new mounting posts as I would like a bit higher ground clearance and originals are chopped to size. That's all for now! You could either dry wall tape and epoxy it from the back, or plate it with some bracing etc etc. Best keep that one handy for when your missus next has a go 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XV Pilot Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Cricket bat repair tape is also good for bodyshell repair and reinforcement. I'd keep the new shell for display and repair the broken one for running. Once the cracks are stuck together neatly they shouldn't be noticeable from the distances we typically drive our RCs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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