EU referendum

[The Hound]

I think we're utterly screwed.

 

I feel like I've woken up and discovered I've been piers morgan all my life

[Alex97]

45 minutes ago, The Hound said:

I think we're utterly screwed.

 

I feel like I've woken up and discovered I've been piers morgan all my life

52% of people don't like him 

[mond]

7 hours ago, Alex97 said:

You should have worked for the remain side  

 

 

What we needed was people not reading news papers made by: A **** baron, the second biggest contributor to UKIP and Rupert Murdoch, a man famed for saying, I quote "When I go to no.10, they do what I say, when I go to the EU, they ignore me. That is why I hate the EU". Not much surprise all his newspapers are so anti-EU. He's also leading the anti-BBC charge because they are direct competition to his TV networks. The sooner that guy kicks the bucket the better. 

Edited June 26, 2016 by mond

[Si Coe]

TBH I mentioned a lot of these problems before the Scottish referendum too, but since they voted to stay it never really came to pass - at the time. The SNP painted a picture of an independent Scotland just gifted a tidy sum in its treasury, 1/4 of the UK armed forces, a fully functional health service and total control over all that oil revenue - none of which had actually been agreed. It just shows these referendums are pretty stupid really as the only 2 boxes are 'stay as things are' or 'make a change' where the nature of that change hasn't been decided.....

 

But I agree we are screwed, not due to the result itself, but what this whole sorry affair has done to the UK. Even if it had been 52/48 in favor of Remain (ie nothing really changes) the damage would have be pretty much the same. Just look at the breakdowns of who voted and for what - there are some very deep and rather bitter divisions in our society. Scotland, London and young people all voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU, older people and middle England overwhelmingly to leave. Those divisions won't disappear - and wouldn't if Remain won either.

Add to that the fact that both sides ran frankly shocking campaigns based on lies, scaremongering and propaganda rather than serious ideas about how we should tackle the issues facing the country and you can see why many people fear for this country.

[mond]

Remain wasn't really scaremongering - what people like the Institute of directors said has come to pass. Just because they tell you something scary doesn't mean it's scaremongering. If your doctor told you smoking is likely too give you breathing problems and a high risk if cancer, is that scaremongering or education?

 

Another 3% lost off the pound this morning. Looks like there is a chance Parliament could ignore the result since its not legally binding.

Edited June 27, 2016 by mond

[RCbutcher]

Well all I'm hearing is a 2nd vote is garanteed 2m petition now. 77.000 fraud sigs from Europeans. 

 

So the only think this done is make the elite a shed ton of cash on the weekend. By next month well be back in and democracy will mean even less. 

 

It doesn't matter the opinion of the result. The result is the result to reverse it means screw you.  

 

I'm confident that whatever happens this country will be better for my kids going into it. That's all I care about.  

[RCbutcher]

I hope the counter riots. Then again that won't happen brits don't riot.  

[Carpmart]

1 hour ago, RCbutcher said:

I hope the counter riots. Then again that won't happen brits don't riot.  

 

Thank god we don't riot!  Far too British for that!  

 

Edited June 27, 2016 by Carpmart

[dazp1976]

At the end of the day. The only way we could affect any kind of change is if we came out.

Every time we went to the EU with any kind of proposal it was laughed out of the office.

We ended up with a wishy washy government that had little power over it's own Country.

General population need to come together now instead of fighting so we can make our Britain a better successful place.

 

With more power comes more responsibility.

[mond]

Little power? EU laws are usually weaker than the UK equivalent. Almost all of them are trade laws which benefit us, the consumer. 

[dazp1976]

7 minutes ago, mond said:

Little power? EU laws are usually weaker than the UK equivalent. Almost all of them are trade laws which benefit us, the consumer. 

So the fact that the EU court of justice could overrule ANY decision made by our court system is irrelevant. Ergo little power.

Every time we tried to put a proposal in for our own Country we got laughed at. Ergo little power

Trade laws and consumer rights exist whether in the EU or not. It's an international legal obligation. What, do you think you're only protected if you're in the EU? Really 

[mond]

The European court of justice has nothing to do with the EU. What laws did we propose that got laughed at? Please name specific ones.

 

WTO trade laws exist but they are not specific to creating a competitive single market which protects the consumer. British consumer law is often tougher than EU laws however it guarantees British goods and services can be sold in Europe and not undercut by unsafe or mislabeled products. Even if we leave the EU, we are still subject to these but will have no say in them. More to the point, the EU has the power to go to China and state products coming into the EU have to meet these standards because it's the largest economy. Britain will actually get laughed at should it try this by itself. It may also be worth noting that Britain had an opt out clause anyway in some of these areas. A good example was consumer electronics, where Britain opted out. Not a good deal for you and me.

[RCbutcher]

Youtube on video called "brexit" watch that and see the way eu regulations have strangled uk exports.  

 

Eu is a trade group that tries to block any trade coming in from outside the eu. Brexit shows it. 

 

It visits a sugar factory down south lyle something brand. He said his business used to export tons, now he can barley supply uk only we now import more than he's allowed to produce.  

 

It shows without regulations a country can do what germany did after ww2. The guy who took over got rid of all regulations to promote competition innovation as easily as possible. Dog eat dog business model. 

 

Now there's 90 laws on how a pillow case can be made and sold. Over 100 on toothbrushes.  It's funny seeing how many laws some items have. Even a spoon every single item is regulated. Bad business is protected or bailed out and start ups are stamped over.  

[mond]

Are you talking about the Abu Hamza case? That was a test case, every time a law is first put into action then tested in a real court that happens. He was deported anyway but reported in the British press incorrectly and without all the facts.  The ECHR only overruled that because it was in contravention of their law (ironically written by the British). As soon as the British was complaint with not sending that guy to a country which would torture him, they deported him. But anyway, that's not the EU, nothing to do with the EU and leaving the EU won't change our membership of the ECHR. 

 

Again, we can blame the right wing press here for misinformation. If you voted out on this then you've been fooled. 

[RCbutcher]

Eu has been negotiating trade with India for 9 years. Another eu country not bound by eu sorted ther trade deal in 6 months.  Usa deal has been blocked for 5 years. Usa wants to sell us more, but that would cut into France and german exports so it's blocked.  

[mond]

The US deal is almost signed. India isn't such a big deal as they don't sell us much yet and we don't sell them much however the US thing is a big deal. It's also worth noting that the US has allot of protectionism in place which is hard to deal with. UK companies which want to trade there normally just buy a US company and do it within the US, however that means that most of the benefits remain in the US. See British Aerospace. 

[RCbutcher]

Usa, Canada and germany already said they want good trade with uk regardless. Germany will offer the uk european partner country deal. 

 

That article also says the £ finished the week on a high, compared over the month it did average apparantly???

 

The calls for re vote petition has shown 40,000 names from the Vatican City.  Who only has a population of 800 lol. 

 

Politicians calling to ignor the vote and "end this madness" are being slammed left right and centre. Ignoring the people's vote is career suicide. But it's not cos their aiming for a seat in the eu anyway. Permanent job no worries and possibility of earning more than our pm anyway.  

 

10,000 unelected Brussels earn more than cameron does, the Brussels building has its own mall for them to privately use. 

[Coops]

I read this piece in the Guardian comments section relating to an EU article:

 

Quote

If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

 

[dazp1976]

 

2 hours ago, RCbutcher said:

Youtube on video called "brexit" watch that and see the way eu regulations have strangled uk exports.  

 

Eu is a trade group that tries to block any trade coming in from outside the eu. Brexit shows it. 

 

It visits a sugar factory down south lyle something brand. He said his business used to export tons, now he can barley supply uk only we now import more than he's allowed to produce.  

 

It shows without regulations a country can do what germany did after ww2. The guy who took over got rid of all regulations to promote competition innovation as easily as possible. Dog eat dog business model. 

 

Now there's 90 laws on how a pillow case can be made and sold. Over 100 on toothbrushes.  It's funny seeing how many laws some items have. Even a spoon every single item is regulated. Bad business is protected or bailed out and start ups are stamped over.  

 

2 hours ago, RCbutcher said:

Eu has been negotiating trade with India for 9 years. Another eu country not bound by eu sorted ther trade deal in 6 months.  Usa deal has been blocked for 5 years. Usa wants to sell us more, but that would cut into France and german exports so it's blocked.  

RCbutcher is pretty much bang on here. 

You're only allowed to import/export a certain amount under the rules because if we did too much trade (which we quite easily could) it would be competition for France, Germany and others. They don't want any competition to interfere with their flow of goods so they restrict/block as much of ours as they can.

Our farmers for instance get incentives to produce as little as possible because France's farming industry is huge. If there was competition for them they wouldn't be impressed..Fishing is restricted big time so it doesn't impact with Denmark, Sweden etc.

It's a total sham.

Trying to start up a new small business is almost impossible. You get stamped on by big corps.

[dazp1976]

9 minutes ago, Coops said:

I read this piece in the Guardian comments section relating to an EU article:

 

 

If that's the case then:

1. Democracy doesn't exist and is finished.

2. Government doesn't want to do any real work for a change, just continue to stay sat asleep in the commons.

3. Government don't give a toss about the people it is supposed to lead and don't respect their opinion.

4. Tories: "We're all in this together" my arse.

[mond]

20 minutes ago, dazp1976 said:

 

 

RCbutcher is pretty much bang on here. 

You're only allowed to import/export a certain amount under the rules because if we did too much trade (which we quite easily could) it would be competition for France, Germany and others. They don't want any competition to interfere with their flow of goods so they restrict/block as much of ours as they can.

Our farmers for instance get incentives to produce as little as possible because France's farming industry is huge. If there was competition for them they wouldn't be impressed..Fishing is restricted big time so it doesn't impact with Denmark, Sweden etc.

It's a total sham.

Trying to start up a new small business is almost impossible. You get stamped on by big corps.

UK farmers get billions subsidies not to produce. That video is farcical. You're just coming up with some rhetoric as to why we should leave, being disproved then moving to the next straw to clutch.

 

Yeah, there's some reforming to do in the EU, people acknowledge that. But now we have no say in it but all those rules you state, still apply to us even outside.  There is no beneficial reason to leave the EU when we discuss economics. No leading economists were on the Leave side. Just racists, xenophobes and those seeking power. A country with 5% unemployment is now looking at recession and job losses en masse because of it. Including mine. Thanks mate.

[dazp1976]

4 minutes ago, mond said:

UK farmers get billions subsidies not to produce. That video is farcical. You're just coming up with some rhetoric as to why we should leave, being disproved then moving to the next straw to clutch.

 

Yeah, there's some reforming to do in the EU, people acknowledge that. But now we have no say in it but all those rules you state, still apply to us even outside.  There is no beneficial reason to leave the EU when we discuss economics. No leading economists were on the Leave side. Just racists, xenophobes and those seeking power. A country with 5% unemployment is now looking at recession and job losses en masse because of it. Including mine. Thanks mate.

Yes we all agree there is reforming needed. We tried to tell them it needs reform earlier this year. What happened? They laughed in our face and we came back with f,all. Once they finally abolish these stupid zero hour contracts and can't use them to fudge the figures then you will see the true unemployment percentage.

Sounds to me like you're some kind of economist & academic that's never been on a shop floor and sees some of the stuff that goes on.

I am not a racist. This was nothing to do with being racist. This was about being sick of getting walked all over.

Being undercut where wages are concerned because of loopholes implemented by the EU I've seen first hand. Nothing gets said when it's below nat min wage because it's apparently legal using the loopholes in large corporations. If you even try to rock the boat you just get replaced.

 

The pound etc will have dropped due to people freaking and selling up. The rest of Europe isn't doing much better, and I've seen the FTSE worse before. Negotiations and talks need to get started and stop dragging heels. The more we start to get on with the less stressed we'll be.

I'm not sorry about my decision but it wasn't an easy one to make by any means.

 

I'm proud to be British. Not a member of a failing bureaucratic European state where it's ALL about the money and the people can just jog on.

[Si Coe]

The Guardian article is essentially correct, though a little unfair in its tone. Triggering article 50 will at least initially seriously crash the economy. We might well recover in time, and yes possibly exceed the present, but that in time part is important. Politicians don't like short term losses for long term goals because the public is rarely patient enough to wait it out. 

 

Even if if leaving the EU eventually turns out to be the best move the UK ever made, the PM that actually starts the process is going to be remembered for the turbulence not the success. Johnson would have loved to let Cameron preside over our exit, watch as the pound tumbles and then stage a takeover of the party just in time to be PM as we recover. No wonder he's in no rush now. 

 

But just in case you are wondering yes its politicians playing power games at the expense of the country. There is a lot more rotten here than just in Brussels. If you really voted out to protect democracy here in the UK isn't it time we actually tried to have some?

 

[mond]

1 hour ago, dazp1976 said:

Yes we all agree there is reforming needed. We tried to tell them it needs reform earlier this year. What happened? They laughed in our face and we came back with f,all. Once they finally abolish these stupid zero hour contracts and can't use them to fudge the figures then you will see the true unemployment percentage.

Sounds to me like you're some kind of economist & academic that's never been on a shop floor and sees some of the stuff that goes on.

I am not a racist. This was nothing to do with being racist. This was about being sick of getting walked all over.

Being undercut where wages are concerned because of loopholes implemented by the EU I've seen first hand. Nothing gets said when it's below nat min wage because it's apparently legal using the loopholes in large corporations. If you even try to rock the boat you just get replaced.

 

The pound etc will have dropped due to people freaking and selling up. The rest of Europe isn't doing much better, and I've seen the FTSE worse before. Negotiations and talks need to get started and stop dragging heels. The more we start to get on with the less stressed we'll be.

I'm not sorry about my decision but it wasn't an easy one to make by any means.

 

I'm proud to be British. Not a member of a failing bureaucratic European state where it's ALL about the money and the people can just jog on.

I've worked on shop floors, I've worked as a cleaner, I've worked for charities for nothing. My dad was a postman, my mum was a dinner lady.  I just don't subscribed to the opinions of news paper barons and politicians but figure stuff out myself by reading about it from different sources and acknowledging experts when they give an opinion, not politicians peddling rhetoric. 

 

Ironically if you're worried about employment law, you should have voted to remain. The EU employment law was actually pretty good, the tories fought it tooth and nail because it was that good. I suggest you read it rather than assume it was bad. The Tories are always looking to kill off workers rights and leaving will give them the mandate to do that. They want to move to an American system which you as a worker has basically no rights what so ever. 

 

If you're getting screwed over illegally by a company, join a union. I did and when I got made redundent in 2000 they helped me out and I won my case. I even got my job back and a payout. 

Edited June 27, 2016 by mond

[Carpmart]

Bottom line is were heading for the deepest recession we will have ever seen.  All because politicians on all,sides lied to the electorate to suit their own personal agendas....

 

nobody has won, no one will win....

 

nobodys job job is safe...

 

borders arent tighter and won't be anytime soon...

 

this will not play out well!