turtletom100 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I have being told that the idle is fine on the firestorm and that the clutch is engaging on idle but I don't understand how or why it is only about 5 weeks old and is the answer rc triple clutch with the 1.1mm springs? I have got to pick it up tommoro so want to get some ideas as to why it could be happening Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCbutcher Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Did you fit the anwser rc clutch they don't have that standard do they mayb its been fitted loose or a spring has given out. The engine might of woken up now break in is complete and needs retuning. Or the radio throttle trim has changed ive done that lol easy to check mayb fitting the new clutch and putting the engine back in and throttle linkage on made the linkage keep the carb open slightly try centering that again too. Its a common issue and usually easy to sort out at worst the clutch needs changing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtletom100 Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 Did you fit the anwser rc clutch they don't have that standard do they mayb its been fitted loose or a spring has given out. The engine might of woken up now break in is complete and needs retuning. Or the radio throttle trim has changed ive done that lol easy to check mayb fitting the new clutch and putting the engine back in and throttle linkage on made the linkage keep the carb open slightly try centering that again too. Its a common issue and usually easy to sort out at worst the clutch needs changing. No they don't come with that as standard I fitted it but made sure it was all nicely done and thought as the shoes are soft ill use the thicker spring to balance that out. I have tried tuning and no matter what I do it still moved on idle (quite bad sometimes) so I done what I got told and took horn off re adjusted the carb and put reset the 1mm idle gap (as mine was massive) this didn't work I tried adjusting idle screw but nothing so I thought sod it ill take it down the hobby shop well to cut a long story short he took it Monday said collect wedsneday and would cost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtletom100 Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) Apparently it can be run still but just going to wear the clutch out alot quicker as need the brake on to stop it from moving when idling which in turn will cause more heat to the engine. Is this correct aswell as I don't want to be ruining my engine I would wait a week and buy another set of clutch shoes for her. Changing subject a touch here I have read that the basic servo in the firestoem is pants (not sure what this means as I don't have any issues) but could this be part the problem aswell if so do you know what I should purchase to replace it? And thankyou for replying Edited October 22, 2014 by turtletom100 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthoop Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) The clutch should be disengaged when the engine is at and below idle speed...you can adjust when and how it operates by changing shoes/springs. There are many things that can go wrong with the type of clutch we use and also many things that need consideration when rebuilding or fitting a different clutch. Presuming then that it is a clutch issue you will need to remove the engine to find and fix the problem. With the engine in your hand... Does the clutchbell turn freely? If yes then next.... Can you pull/push the clutchbell in/out (towards/away from the engine)?...if yes then how much?...if just a little (!) then next.. Can you wobble the clutchbell?....if not that much (!) then next... Remove clutchbell. You are looking for broken spring/s...sticky shoes...worn shoe mount/hole...signs of springs rubbing...bluing signs... Oh and personally I would not recommend using it until you have fixed the problem...holding it still whilst the clutch is engaged will not be good for many reasons... Edited October 22, 2014 by Anthoop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtletom100 Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) The clutch should be disengaged when the engine is at and below idle speed...you can adjust when and how it operates by changing shoes/springs. There are many things that can go wrong with the type of clutch we use and also many things that need consideration when rebuilding or fitting a different clutch.Presuming then that it is a clutch issue you will need to remove the engine to find and fix the problem. With the engine in your hand... Does the clutchbell turn freely? If yes then next.... Can you pull/push the clutchbell in/out (towards/away from the engine)?...if yes then how much?...if just a little (!) then next.. Can you wobble the clutchbell?....if not that much (!) then next... Remove clutchbell. You are looking for broken spring/s...sticky shoes...worn shoe mount/hole...signs of springs rubbing...bluing signs... Oh and personally I would not recommend using it until you have fixed the problem...holding it still whilst the clutch is engaged will not be good for many reasons... Cheers for replying much appreciated. Firstly I have had a look tonight but I didn't take the engine out. I took the spur off and the spur that attaches to the clutch bell spun that and spins freely and just carries on no grinding feels really nice (like it is meant too I think) I took the bell off and can see that the edges of the shoes have got a bit of burr on them and to my amazement i haven't used the 1.1mm springs I have used the 0.9mm. Personally I am leaning towards saying that the bur isn't great and secondly the springs are too soft. Correct me if I'm wrong but changing the springs to 1.1mm should mean that it won't engage ad easy at idle which is good. And should stop the movement? While doing this I will use a bit if emery cloth and going to de burr the shoes. If you want I can rake a photo and maybe you could help advise further? Edited October 22, 2014 by turtletom100 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthoop Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Thicker/stronger springs will mean the clutch engages later....higher rpm to engage....usually this is only down to preference rather than an essential thing.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtletom100 Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 Thicker/stronger springs will mean the clutch engages later....higher rpm to engage....usually this is only down to preference rather than an essential thing.... But at the moment where on idle the car rolls the thicker springs will stop this from happening would it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtletom100 Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 I have made a video and took couple photos though like I said it is still sitting in the car. Video of the bell running smoothly. Bell: http://youtu.be/x69fVAWWG0k and some images of the shoes as best I could get whilst still in the car. But think you can see the jist of it. They look worse in the photos as it is a close up but I am pretty sure just a light rub down with a bit of emery cloth to remove the burr that has "mushroomed" over the edge (if that's the correct term) and thicker springs will be fine. Please advise me. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atom3624 Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Looks like they may not be seated properly and the tops of the shoes are catching the bell. What's the inside of the bell look like? Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtbag Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 (edited) I think your clutch nuts the wrong way round, shouldn't the end of the spring be in the recess of the clutch nut? Having changed from a 2 shoe to 3, you may need a different clutch nut? The clutch shoes look like they are coming off the flywheel when you fire the engine, and engaging the clutch on the face of the shoes. Edited October 23, 2014 by Dirtbag 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtletom100 Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 I think your clutch nuts the wrong way round, shouldn't the end of the spring be in the recess of the clutch nut? Having changed from a 2 shoe to 3, you may need a different clutch nut? The clutch shoes look like they are coming off the flywheel when you fire the engine, and engaging the clutch on the face of the shoes. Have you got an image or something as I thought these were dome correctly. Please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtletom100 Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 Looks like they may not be seated properly and the tops of the shoes are catching the bell. What's the inside of the bell look like? Al. The inside of the bell had got a few marks and could do with a slight clean I will get a picture later. So if they are not sitter properly what is the correct way. And I'm not sure about the nut. Wow I didn't think there was this many things to go wrong with replacing clutch shoes lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtbag Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Sorry Tom I'm at work atm, and my old phone has pics of my clutch setup. But when I get back I'll have a look for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtletom100 Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 Sorry Tom I'm at work atm, and my old phone has pics of my clutch setup. But when I get back I'll have a look for you. Ok no worries thankyou very much, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atom3624 Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Dirtbag's comments complement by initial thoughts. Looks like the retaining springs might be mounted a bit high up - this in turn is holding the shoes away from the flywheel more than they should, hence why I asked if the inside of the bell was 'scraped' / shiny. Let's see what DB comes up with later on. Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtletom100 Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 Dirtbag's comments complement by initial thoughts. Looks like the retaining springs might be mounted a bit high up - this in turn is holding the shoes away from the flywheel more than they should, hence why I asked if the inside of the bell was 'scraped' / shiny. Let's see what DB comes up with later on. Al. What do you mean they are mounted a hit high up? I thought there was only one position? :-s Sorry I am a hit of a noob especially to this lol I have ordered some more 1.1 springs which are thicker than the 0.9mm springs gs in there currently which means that they are going to stick out more don't it? Do the shoes look like they need replacing though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atom3624 Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 It's what he was saying earlier. We need to confirm, but it appears the nut is upside down ... This is permitting the shoes to be higher up than they should, scraping the bell .... POSSIBLY! Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtletom100 Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 It's what he was saying earlier. We need to confirm, but it appears the nut is upside down ... This is permitting the shoes to be higher up than they should, scraping the bell .... POSSIBLY! Al. Okie we will see what he comes back with. Cheers for your reply. Either way I think I'll be better using 1.1mm springs so it needs a little bit more throttle but will this affect the acceleration/top speed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthoop Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 As pointed out it looks like the flywheel nut is either wrong or fitted incorrectly. The shoes are not sat on the flywheel (ideally you will have little washers on the three flywheel pins that the shoes sit on), they appear to be too high on the pins...there are signs that the flat side of the black shoe has been rubbing on the bell. Take the shoes off and look at the flywheel nut, it has a groove around it that the clutch springs sit in. If the groove is too high then the shoes will naturally ride up the pins. Using thicker springs will mean the clutch engages later in the engine rpm range....this will mean that the engine is producing more power when the clutch engages....the clutch set up will not affect top speed...the clutch is just to connect the drive from the engine to the wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtletom100 Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 As pointed out it looks like the flywheel nut is either wrong or fitted incorrectly. The shoes are not sat on the flywheel (ideally you will have little washers on the three flywheel pins that the shoes sit on), they appear to be too high on the pins...there are signs that the flat side of the black shoe has been rubbing on the bell. Take the shoes off and look at the flywheel nut, it has a groove around it that the clutch springs sit in. If the groove is too high then the shoes will naturally ride up the pins. Using thicker springs will mean the clutch engages later in the engine rpm range....this will mean that the engine is producing more power when the clutch engages....the clutch set up will not affect top speed...the clutch is just to connect the drive from the engine to the wheels. Cheers for replying Anthoop :-) What do you mean by little washers I don't remember fitting little washers to the pins. But I will have to double check. I think the groove is around the top of the nut at the moment. When I took the bell of there was some was some residue (I wouldn't say swarf but it had formed like a grey paste) in your opinion do the shoes look like they will be fine I am going to take them out and file the burr down. But just can't get the engine out at the moment as one of the engine mount screws has a rounded head so I am going to order some more screws then I will bore the screw out. Unless I can pull it off with the engine still in the car. And so basically if I use thicker springs it will help stop the clutch engaging but chances are is that the nut is either the wrong way or the wrong nut. I am waiting for a photo off the correct way these should be as I have only done them the once but didn't have the tool so done it using screwdriver the tool is now ordered and so are the thicker springs so can do it properly. Just need a pboto or something to use a guide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthoop Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 The little washers... http://www.jemodels.com/index.php?app=gbu0&ns=prodshow&ref=TD-TD709019 Note that I said ideally they will be used....the clutch should work fine without them...but if they are there then the shoe action will stay smooth for longer than without them.... All they do is prevent the flat side of the shoe rubbing on the flywheel. Note that some shoes/flywheels may not require the washers. The last picture you posted makes the shoe/s look pretty worn...and I too wonder what the inside of the bell is looking like? For the engine removal problem...if it is just one rounded screw head on the engine mounts to chassis? Remove the other screws and undo the engine whilst trying to hold the screw....do not try tipping/pulling/etc. to try and break the screw as the engine casing is cast and could break. I do not have one of those shoe tools either, never felt a need for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtletom100 Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 (edited) The little washers... http://www.jemodels.com/index.php?app=gbu0&ns=prodshow&ref=TD-TD709019 Note that I said ideally they will be used....the clutch should work fine without them...but if they are there then the shoe action will stay smooth for longer than without them.... All they do is prevent the flat side of the shoe rubbing on the flywheel. Note that some shoes/flywheels may not require the washers. The last picture you posted makes the shoe/s look pretty worn...and I too wonder what the inside of the bell is looking like? For the engine removal problem...if it is just one rounded screw head on the engine mounts to chassis? Remove the other screws and undo the engine whilst trying to hold the screw....do not try tipping/pulling/etc. to try and break the screw as the engine casing is cast and could break. I do not have one of those shoe tools either, never felt a need for it. Wow I didn't realise this would be such a complex change lol I 5 hough it was take others out replace with them and job done lol. Well I will have to have a look when I get the shoes out. And I think the last image makes it look worse because I was trying to look Dow on them. I just not sure whether I should buy another set of shoes or not aswell. And the inside of the bell looks like this So with the engine 5 are 5 he other 3 screws out and actually try turning the engine not the screw is that right? Edited October 23, 2014 by turtletom100 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtletom100 Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 Also they look worse I think because they have "mushroomed" if that is the right word. That is why I say I need to file the burr I will attempt to 4 are the engine out so I can get these off the flywheel and ill file the sides and take another picture. I have also got the I tey ones I took out because I wanted to make sure that clutch wasn't going to be any issue (seems like I possibly done the opposite lol) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthoop Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 The bell shows signs of the shoes contacting the flat face... Yes...to remove the engine if one chassis screw head is rounded...then remove other screws and turn engine whilst griping rounded screw as best as you can...(maybe a torx could grip a rounded allen...or a flat blade could grip a cross head.....or just drill the head off and grip the remaining stud with pliers/molegrips). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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