pug=309 Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Hi, i know this will be one of those "how long is a piece of string" questions, but how long should a 2 shoe clutch last (not an alu one), same for the spring that goes round it. What are the benefits of going to an alu one over composite ones and are there any negatives Thanks Allan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthoop Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Yes...hard to answer how long it will last...too many variables....but generally the clutch bearings should need attention before the shoes...again though, hard to say how long that would be. The difference between shoe materials is how they engage...so the aluminium shoes engage hard and the composite softer...a rough comparison would be dropping the clutch (in a real car) or engaging it normally. With the two shoe clutch you will often be using the same spring so another thing to bear in mind is that the aluminium shoes are heavier and will engage sooner.... Whilst two shoe clutches work just fine you will find that a three shoe will give more options (shoes/springs) and you can taylor the clutch to work how you want it to far easier. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pug=309 Posted December 10, 2014 Author Share Posted December 10, 2014 Hi, thank you for all the help/advice you have given me since i joined, it is very much appreciated Allan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro RC Nerd Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Whilst two shoe clutches work just fine you will find that a three shoe will give more options (shoes/springs) and you can taylor the clutch to work how you want it to far easier. +1. I have employed a plethora of upgrades to many different vehicles. To this day, the single biggest impact I've seen on a vehicle is going from a 2-shoe to a 3-shoe. What vehicle are you referencing? Going from 2-shoe to 3-shoe can be a bit tricky so if you are interested in going that route I'm happy to help. Just remember that a clutch setup is all about harnessing u2-sable power.Thus there is no 'best clutch'. It comes down to the making the most of your available traction.I know a lot of guys look down on nylon shoes, but in many cases I prefer them. I run every shoe imaginable...and nylon has its advantages just as alum does., With that, if your 2-shoe clutch is engaging before the engine draws sufficient power, you can drill holes in the shoes to lighten them. This is what I sued to do...but as noted, going 3-shoe will give you all the tuning options needed for proper acceleration. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pug=309 Posted December 11, 2014 Author Share Posted December 11, 2014 Hi, thanks for your advice, i started looking for a nice "low maintenance" clutch setup for my son's Virus ST (with a Picco Schumacher x28), after looking about, i discovered the Fioroni sliding clutch, bought (what i thought was) a used real Fioroni clutch (it wasn't) it ate a black 2 shoe clutch within a tank (on a HPI F4.6 v2), i then bought a white 2 shoe set, went threw that in less than half a tank, bought a whate 4 shoe setup (this all for the "real" Fioroni sliding ), lasted longer but it just didn't seem to grip enough and glazed all 4 shoes. I needed to break in the Picco for my son so a 4.6 trophy truggy 2 shoe flywheel and white clutch was bought cheap and lasted about 15+ tanks before the spring seemed to of stretched (as it isn't tight on the shoes anymore. I have just won a used Werks 4 shoe medium pro clutch set, Radiosistemi 3 shoe adjustable clutch set aswell as another Werks 4 shoe flywheel, clutchbell's etc(all one auction ), Was this a smart move? Allan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthoop Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Hi, thank you for all the help/advice you have given me since i joined, it is very much appreciated No problem at all, always glad to try and help. It sounds like you have been trying (and getting through) some clutches....something else to think about is that when the shoes/bell are new it will take a little time to bed in...I just accelerate gently for a tank or so being careful not to overload the clutch, some people will hold the car down and rev the engine a few times (makes me cringe though). Oh and I will also wipe the new shoes/bell with degreaser before fitting. When the spring/s stretch or lose their tension it is often a sign that the clutch has been overheating. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pug=309 Posted December 11, 2014 Author Share Posted December 11, 2014 Hi, The fioroni clutches went when breaking in our f4.6, all at third-ish throttle, can clutchbell's affect this process too? threw all of these i was using an L factory vented 13t bell. What can cause clutch to overheat, i guess this explains why the plastic cover on my clutch bearings (Answer-rc) disappear after every few tanks Allan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro RC Nerd Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 (edited) If you are looking for longevity, nylon/plastic/carbon is the way to go. The stock HPI shoes should last 10+ gallons. In my experience, I'm happy to get 1 to 1.5 gallons from alum, however, I have yet to 'wear down' a set of nylons...and I have 3-4 sets that have 7+ gallons and they look like new. The downside to nylon/plastic/composite/carbon is that if the clutch bell does over heat...the shoes will melt. It happened to me once and this is because the brake disc on my Savage was ever-so-gently rubbing up against the bell for a split second when I landed off huge jumps. Took me forever to figure it out as stationary there was a 2mm gap, but then noticed every time I jumped a lot....my spur gear melted (due to the bell being so hot). Eventually my shoes started showing signs of melting. So answer your question what causes the clutch to overheat is friction. Most of the time it's due to some outside source rubbing against the bell, or incorrect shimming and lack of maintenance. The problem is that most any clutch will 'work' on any vehicle. However, if you start experimenting with different makes of the clutch you can get in to trouble. This is why (for the most part) I run a clutch kit soup-to-nuts (collet, flywheel, clutch nut,, shoes shoes, springs, etc.) Werks clutches are great. The way I seat my clutches is to hold the vehicle down....give slow-med throttle for 3-5 seconds, then release. I repeat that for about a minute. Also, I keep a one-to-one relationship between my bells and clutch shoes. Meaning every-time I get a new clutch setup, I get a new bell and only run that bell wit that clutch setup. This is not a requirement, but merely a best practice to keep the clutch fully optimized. Edited December 12, 2014 by Nitro RC Nerd 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pug=309 Posted December 12, 2014 Author Share Posted December 12, 2014 Hi, thanks for a detailed reply, thinking about it, i don't think i had a shim between the clutch nut and the clutchbell bearing as there wasn't enough clearance between the bell and the spur gear, i have Hyper 7 engine mounts now (not the hyper st ones i bought by mistake) so i now have a bit more adjustability so hopefully that was the problem. The reason for "clutch hoping" is firstly due to this engine being designed for a 10th scale 80mph monster so the stock flywheel, clutch, clutchbell setup wont work with an 8th scale offroad truggy, the other being that as this is my son's rc, he wants to do everything himself so a low maintenance long lasting setup was what i was aiming for, but i guess a typical 3/4 show setup is going to be easier (and cheaper) in the long run. Thank you both again, i really do appreciate the help and advice you both have giving Allan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamiyacowboy Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 tunes his voice ..... la laaa laaa laa laaaaa. All the scalers , So many Scalers, and they all work hand in hand on there clutch life ...... lol sorry i just had to . Serious sam stuff now. think of when you meet /hear an oldie riding on the clutch in his ferrari. now take that riding the clutch and put it into rc. thats a bit like your Nitro engine. as we gain rpm's up, we start to throw those shoes outwards, and they are going to slip a little before they bite, truck is going to seem a little slower of the start than usual, but it settles down. now lets put a shoddy clutch in on thats on its way, first off your going to notice when you start up NO CREAP, those wheels sit perfect still even with motor lifted above ground. Second its going to stall on drving, your going to automaticly add more throttle to compensate the slippage. and its going to feel very down on power, you boot the throttle and the truck just screams and rolls along. THIS is sure sign clutch is going out. 2 shoes - or three shoes analogy : your first ever bike, a two wheel monster , you jump on and fall off right away. your mate billy well he got a trike bike, but he aint falling off why. SURFACE AREA. see billys bike or dare we say clutch has more surface area so even if a spring starts to fail the other two shoes still have a lot of surface area nearly 75% your poor two shoe clutch has less surface area, BUT its lighter so your RPM is going to be a little higher. Shoes come in prefference, most like a lotta bite area the off roaders and likes, they need that bite to contend with the loose dirt etc etc. a on-road racer lets say me, now i would rather go with a two shoe clutch. clutches are about grip bite and rpm, the more clutch you have the tiny bit of rpm lost but huge bite, all that torque is driven straight into the gearing. with a two shoe you gain a little rpm but you loose that full hardcore bite. you dont want to power wheelie of the start line, so a lighter clutch means a tad more rpm. but it can be under more slippage strain as it has less surface area. alloy has a lower melting temp than a comp , so most run composites to help with heat and wear, but they can be more heavy than the alloy shoe. there are so many factors to deal with on clutches, how they work and the lifespan. but then again most of this comes down to the driver. on a race day, you dont hear the rc cars sitting at the line reving up and down. you also do not hear them build up revs to max then clutch dump. In an RC race all cars sit at idle running, soon as the third beep goes, you floor it. so the best ever tip is when your not running round, do not sit revving the motor up and down. let her just sit and idle over. this way the engine rev's are kept low and the clutch is seated fully retracted. you keep blipping the throttle you send torque to the clutch that inturn opens and slipgrips the clutch bell and the car rocks back an fouth. well all your doing is wearing out the clutch and heating it up. As long as you keep an eye on the clutch, every week couple week - month strip it down have a gander it should run fine be it two or three shoe. How long will it last a week or even five years with some rust added in from the long sitting. it depends how much the clutch is used, same as the car, more use more wear. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthoop Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Hi, thanks for a detailed reply, thinking about it, i don't think i had a shim between the clutch nut and the clutchbell bearing as there wasn't enough clearance between the bell and the spur gear, i have Hyper 7 engine mounts now (not the hyper st ones i bought by mistake) so i now have a bit more adjustability so hopefully that was the problem. The reason for "clutch hoping" is firstly due to this engine being designed for a 10th scale 80mph monster so the stock flywheel, clutch, clutchbell setup wont work with an 8th scale offroad truggy, the other being that as this is my son's rc, he wants to do everything himself so a low maintenance long lasting setup was what i was aiming for, but i guess a typical 3/4 show setup is going to be easier (and cheaper) in the long run. When fitting the bell it is important to leave a little bit of freeplay (in/out), so that when everything warms up there is no binding....when you fit the bell it should rotate freely and have a "snick" of in/out movement. Any shims or the screw on the end of the crank should only contact the inner race of the bell bearings....and of course the bell should have adequate clearance to the flywheel. Also ensure that the engine is idling slow enough that the clutch is disengaged..sometimes people have the LSN and idle gap set incorrectly and adjust the brakes to prevent the vehicle from moving. It is all a steep learning curve when you are new...but stick with it...you will get there. Finally...do not think that the clutch on the Fusion would/could be the answer (if it would fit)...it was not good enough for the .21 engine that they used it on before, the first upgrade for any Fusion/Menace was the superb three shoe clutch/flywheel/bell from Wolfpack Radicals..( http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t243/Anfhoop/Flywheel.jpg ). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pug=309 Posted December 12, 2014 Author Share Posted December 12, 2014 Tamiyacowboy, Thanks for the tips and a great analogy Anthoop, Yes it has been a steep learning curve, but where would the fun be if it all went straight (certainly wasn't fun when it went full tilt into a chunky fence post) Thank you again, guess we'll see where we are when these setups arrive. Cheers guys Allan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjsparks Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 just to add, ive found that if u get a new set of clutch shoes and springs , it doesn't matter if that's a 2 shoe set up or a 3 shoe set up, if when u first get them u pour nitro fuel over them and set them alight until theres nothing left, they don't last very long, saying that tho an aluminium shoe may take slightly longer to discintegrate. anyway in answer to your question, no more than 5 minutes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pug=309 Posted December 13, 2014 Author Share Posted December 13, 2014 just to add, ive found that if u get a new set of clutch shoes and springs , it doesn't matter if that's a 2 shoe set up or a 3 shoe set up, if when u first get them u pour nitro fuel over them and set them alight until theres nothing left, they don't last very long, saying that tho an aluminium shoe may take slightly longer to discintegrate. anyway in answer to your question, no more than 5 minutes Er....Thanks, i think... Allan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthoop Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 I think someone started the Xmas spirit (s) early today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pug=309 Posted December 14, 2014 Author Share Posted December 14, 2014 I guess it's 12 o'clock somewhere Allan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro RC Nerd Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Great feedback about clutch setups, which I feel have a huge impact on overall vehicle performance. Once you get the setup, I have some clutch tuning videos on my channel that will show the extreme settings static RPM lags vs engine stumbles. Listening to the engine is key and it helps to see examples of what each scenario (including the right one) sounds like. Took me about a year to fully grasp setting it up for multiple surfaces but now it's like riding a bike. ;-). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pug=309 Posted December 17, 2014 Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 Thanks, ill have a wee looky at your youtube videos. Thanks Allan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro RC Nerd Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 No worries. I do a horrible job of categorization, so sent you a link to one that should help. Best advice is to grasp basic concepts and work from there. I often see folks ask "What's the best clutch setup for X vehicle" followed by a slew of recommendations. I don't understand that as the question itself is not one that can be answered. Even knowing the engine, of course stronger engine=earlier engagement and vice/versa....but this is high-level so the true answer is it depends on traction (tires/surface), and overall setup. This is the whole idea behind having a clutch with multiple tuning options. I have an M2C clutch I'm about to put on one of my buggies. I'll roll film on the entire process I go through to ensure I have it optimized for where I run. It's a bid tedious and probably not the most efficient, but it works for me and as noted it's always good to see and hear how it should not behave as well as how it should. Reading about it only helps so much (IMO). I was fortunate to learn from guys like Mitch Looper and Dave Maslar, and even then I'd send videos..."How's this?" so they could properly assist and mentor me. ;-) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pug=309 Posted December 18, 2014 Author Share Posted December 18, 2014 Hey, that makes alot of sense, hadn't thought about it like that. Allan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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